Working mothers can't have it all?

[Unicornhat]

I've never been ruthlessly ambitious but have always worked hard and been in pretty senior roles since my mid 20s. I'm currently in a snr manager role in a large company and earn a really good salary with perks etc. I feel like I kind of fell into this role - I've never consciously decided this is where I've wanted my career to be, I was approached about the job and here we are.
I now have an almost 2 year old and I hope to have another.
I'm finding the balance really difficult. I have so much less interest in my job and I'm fed up of it taking up so much headspace outside of the office, and I'm fed up of being the manager. It's a role where you're creative and always coming up with more and more new ideas. The workload is intense I always feel I'm letting someone down.
Realistically, for me to get a part time job, or even one that gives you an opportunity for a proper lunch break and to leave on time, would mean a massive pay cut. Also, if I step back for a while I'm concerned I wouldn't get back into a senior role and salary for a v long time.
Am I just crap at managing things, or is it possible to hold down a good career and have young children? Has anyone given up a job like this and then regretted it? Have you struggled financially?
My sister and in laws keep telling me to get an easier job but it's not that simple!

Thepeopleversuswork and Icanstillrecallourlastsummer - the point about feeling happier leaving children with a wife/ husband rather than childcare is a very valid one. I would have found that somewhat easier than any other alternative. But still not as ideal as doing it myself. And I don't want to be told I should "compartmentalise" that feeling, thanks very much. Why should I? I've never felt anything stronger in my life.

I believe men and women are similar are far more ways that not, but this is one if the areas in which they are wired differently and have been since the beginning of time. No point pretending otherwise really.

Sorry but the reason you don’t get men on internet boards worrying about separation anxiety from their kids is because they know there is a woman who can do that for them.

Plenty of men miss their children while they are working and want to spend time with them but it doesn’t cross their minds to feel guilty about it or think it’s unnatural or impossible because they haven’t been repeatedly told that it’s their sole responsibility to be with them.

They rationalise and compartmentalise it as long as they know the child is safe, happy and well cared for. Which is exactly what women should

I could not agree more 👍🏻

They rationalise and compartmentalise it as long as they know the child is safe, happy and well cared for. Which is exactly what women should

I wouldn't compartmentalise my feelings or desires to my own detriment. But of course guilt should not be forced on women for their choices.

I believe men and women are similar are far more ways that not, but this is one if the areas in which they are wired differently and have been since the beginning of time. No point pretending otherwise really.

I completely agree. I remember when my husband first took our baby out for a walk in his park when he was 4 months old and it was unbearable. After 30 minutes I rang my husband and begged him to come home. I know it sounds irrational but it felt unbearable not have my baby with me, it was a completely primal instinct.

When our second son was about the same age he went to my PIL’s house for an hour, and even though they live on the same street as us, it was awful leaving him there. It truly felt like I had abandoned my baby. Again, I know it’s not rational but it just so wrong to be away from my babies.

I’m sure my husband thought I was a bit mad but he understood how unnatural and threatening it felt to not have my babies with me and know they were safe.

I do believe that because of the pregnancy, the birth, the breast feeding and maternity leave, the mother-baby relationship is very different to the father-baby relationship. I do believe that some mothers do really feel a completely primal urge to have to their infants/children near them to know they’re safe.

Even when my children are at school I miss them. If they have sleepovers at the grandparent’s houses I really miss them and feel a sense of relief when they come home. My husband on the other hands feels nothing but enjoyment from having a quiet and empty house 😂

He obviously loves our children, but it’s not the same kind of love that I feel for them.

Women should be able to own their feelings (whatever they may be) and stop brushing them aside for fear it might put them at a perceived disadvantage to men.

Agree with @IncompleteSenten it’s not possible to have everything; there are compromises and sacrifices whether you work, stay at home or a combination of both.

I have 2 young children, expecting a 3rd. I have a full-time career job and am a very high earner. Life is ridiculously busy and can be stressful, working a lot of evenings etc. I have a wonderful husband, similar very high earner and we split household tasks, child drops and pick-ups etc equally. It wouldn't be possible without us being an equal team. We outsource a lot - cleaner, gardener etc and have whiteboards to track kids' activities etc. It's like a military operation but I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm proud to be independent and show our DDs that women can be ambitious and successful. The key is a supportive partner and outsourcing!

@EmptyHouse0822

I would think less of my dh if I thought he loved our kids less than I did

do believe that because of the pregnancy, the birth, the breast feeding and maternity leave, the mother-baby relationship is very different to the father-baby relationship.

What about mums who don't feel the same? Are they wired wrong?

And what about the mum/dad/ child relationship?

Surely having given birth only takes you so far?

@EmptyHouse0822 i think its clear you are saying your husband does love your kids, you just feel it's just a bit different.
Our DS still hasn't stayed out anywhere overnight and he's started school last year, it's ok to feel like that and of course it ok if some mums feel different. That's the beauty of us all being different.

@Thinkbiglittleone

How do you love your kids differently?

I'm really not sure people do think its ok if mums feel differently

I agree and what I've come to realise is I don't want it all.

On the plus side I feel the tide is starting to turn in terms of how families allocate their time. I know couples who each work part time and do half a week's childcare and I know couples where the wife is the main breadwinner. Hopefully we are moving towards a time when each family works out a way that is best suited to them.

So if a Mom is happy to go out and do a food shop for a couple of hours without their 4 month old, for example, would you say she just loves her baby differently (AKA lesser) than you?

Is freaking out because the 4 month old is with Daddy for 30 minutes alone proof of your superior love or poor post mental wellbeing?

OP I appreciate your quandary but do not understand why this is a ‘working mothers’ issue.
I am the major breadwinner in the household working long hours with early starts. DH has done most nursery / school pickups as it is mutually convenient but other than that, child time is 50/50 and housework & general admin is about 60/40 me/ him (not quite where it needs to be but really not bad).
I’d suggest dwelling on why this is presenting as a ‘mothers’ issue to you. Do you actually want to take the foot off the pedal a bit work wise (which is completely understandable, and may be temporary) or is your DH not fully stepping up in the way you need him to.

I actually find the challenge in some ways is worse as they get older, and the outsourcing becomes harder : supervising homework or explaining things they didn’t understand at school, helping them prep for exams, supervising music tuition, taking them to clubs which are further afield because they are trying to get into the county team etc (as opposed to Monkey Music round the corner) all of those things are much much harder to outsource especially with multiple children.

Husband and i are also fairly high earners but both of us have stalled our career to manage the above, and also see our children. He moved from a big law firm to in house, I tick along in a corporate job I hate but which I can do relatively comfortably at about 70% of my ability as my head is quite simply elsewhere- but it pays the bills.

I have never seen anyone who I considered having it all - or not by my definition at least. A big job and children is totally possible- but those parents don’t do regular school pickups, take kids to parc after school with friends, chat on the way back, and do all the little things which are so important day to day.

I will always remember a neighbour who had a baby at the same time as me. She ran a hedge fund and was amazingly high flying. About 9 months later she told me that her dearest wish on most evenings was that her baby would wake up in the night, because then ‘she would get to touch and cuddle him’ (by the time she got back, her child was always asleep). I remember thinking it was the saddest thing I had ever heard, and that for all her money and success, she was missing the most basic and primal joy. For me, that sacrifice is not worth it.

Is freaking out because the 4 month old is with Daddy for 30 minutes alone proof of your superior love or poor post mental wellbeing?

Neither. I was just saying how difficult I found it being away from my baby. I’m not sure why my experience means that I think others who didn’t experience the same didn’t love their baby 🙄

I read a post once where a mother said her 4 year old had never spent the night away from her (a sleepover at nanny’s house for example) as she didn’t want to be away from her child overnight. My child on the other hand had slept over at my mum’s house when he was 15 months old….did that mean I loved my child less than the other poster loved hers? Of course not and that’s not what I took from her post either.

No parenting actions are ‘proof’ of whether one mother loves her child more than another mother does. That’s a really strange idea.

I don’t think my experience/feelings were particularly uncommon ones, but it isn’t a ‘rule’ that every mother must feel the same otherwise she doesn’t love her child.

@CocoC absolutely, we'll consider dropping to part-time if it ever becomes unmanageable. At the moment we're at the school gates 6 out of 10 times in a week which I think is pretty good! We can work flexibility so are very lucky. We spend all weekend with the kids (7 and 4), we do not work whilst they are awake. I think we're probably as close to having it all as it gets but at times it is stressful. The sacrifice is our own downtime - never, ever the kids.

Choose job carefully - we relocated so I was no longer commuting for hours and so that DH could do schoolrun on foot.
Share out fairly who does what - I don't do any cleaning or most laundry for instance as that is what DH does. I cook but do a lot of batch type stuff to make it quicker/easier. This mostly happens in the week which then frees up weekend time.
Kid admin - deal with immediately, have both of you on school app/email list and on shared family calendar.

I also ditched a lot of the volunteering stuff I had been doing before I had DD as there wasn't time with work and her. I don't miss it and should have got better at saying 'no' sooner!

@EmptyHouse0822 No parenting actions are ‘proof’ of whether one mother loves her child more than another mother does.

But they are proof mothers love their kids more than fathers?

I didn't have the unbearable urge never to be away from DD though - not all women have it. I resented being forced to room-in on postnatal and would have preferred to use a newborn nursery. I left her at home with DH for a few hours one evening a week from 3 months old so I could go out and really enjoyed the break from her. I didn't miss her whilst I was away. I don't when I'm at work - I know she's safe and well looked after, and I'm enjoying being at work. We haven't got any family support so it was relentless on maternity leave.

I remember being at a baby group and one Mum had left her 3 month old baby with her parents for a couple of nights to go on a weekend away with her partner. Half the mums were horrified by this and felt they couldn't have left their baby, the other half were jealous and wished they could do the same!

And I've had friends who found working night shifts was actually more manageable than day - if you have a baby or toddler that sleeps badly, then you're at work not dealing with that because your partner is at home, and baby/toddler is at nursery in the daytime so you can get a solid block of sleep in!

Dealing with school events etc is easier from a senior management position too - I have control over my diary and some flexibility. We also book leave in hours so, with enough notice (glares at school ) I just book an hour's leave for eg an assembly and start work at 10am.

That's a lot easier to manage than when I was lower level, front line, no control over my diary and leave was only available in full or half days.

Of course mothers don't love children MORE than the fathers. But, on a group level, the way women and men react after a baby is likely to vary. For instance, I remember my husband telling someone that there's nothing like your wife having a child to 'put a rocket up you' and by this he meant that an instinct to provide and protect the mother and baby kicks in and is something men feel strongly. This is nothing unusual. That is what motivates a lot of men, whereas women are likely to be more stressed by things like being physically separated from a child. Women are more instinctively tuned in to the baby and it's feeding patterns etc from day one - it's like a kind of sixth sense or intuition that is quite unique. This is a fundamental purpose to this - ie. the survival of the species since time began! Obviously, there is a range and some couples won't react 'to type' in such a marked way, but if that's how you feel, you know its a real thing and that's the end of it. Doesn't matter what anyone else feels or theorises. It's also something that you can't really prepare for or anticipate until it actually happens. I think pretending women and men 'should' feel exactly the same after children is not only futile, but also a threat to women's mental health and a negation of women in general.

Ni doubt someone will interpret this as me saying " women should not work" - but I am 100% not saying this remotely. Of course women will work! But let's not pretend they don't experience specific types of issues men for not face (to the same extent). Negating fundamental human differences is not the way to achieve equality.

@subtitle

No one has said men and women should feel the same but that there shouldn't be a difference in parenting

Research shows the more direct parenting men do the more hormones they produce the same as women

Men and women are different biologically but that doesn't mean it's OK for men to never parent.

We're not slaves to our hormones.

@CocoC "A big job and children is totally possible- but those parents don’t do regular school pickups, take kids to parc after school with friends, chat on the way back, and do all the little things which are so important day to day."

I guess it depends how big you need to be the the job to be. I have had good career progression, aand can do what you mention there, at least some of the time. I am maybe not a "high flyer" because I have tailored my career progression to achieve what I want from a career generally (which includes work/ life balance - this doesn't have to do with kids so much as not wanting to spend my life working 80hrs a week and die of a stress induced heart attack at 65).

But then again I am an in house lawyer, which you and your husband obviously see as career compromising, so perhaps my career would be seen as entirely unsatisfactory to me. Don't worry, I am not offended, I couldn't think of anything worse than devoting my career to a big lawfirm - which is why I, a long time ago, got out of that sector. I guess we all measure career sucess differently.

@subtitle I am not convinced this is biological (beyond the first couple of months where there are a LOT of hormones going around). Later it will be due to the fact that society allows women to become PCG while making it difficult for men tot take that role. In countries where maternity/ paternity leave looks different you do not get this same thing. If you told a dad in Norway he could never love his child in the same way as its mother you would not be popular or have a lot of support.