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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be on the deeds of the house

340 replies

Unicornetto · 20/09/2022 19:04

We aren't married but should I have my name on the deeds of the house?

Me and my partner have been together for 15 years and bought our first house 5 years ago. The house is in my partners name as I had no income at the time as we had just had a baby. I have had various part time jobs to fit in around the children over the last few years and haven't contributed to the mortgage just the food shopping and clothes etc for kids.

He has just remortgaged and I've been asked to sign the 'declaration of no interest' (I did this before) but I'm wondering if I should be on the deeds as we're not married? Is this possible if I don't pay the mortgage and I'm not on the mortgage? He said he doesn't believe in marriage, even though I do and says he's happy as we are. I'm just worried that I have no financial stability, which is due to giving up my full time job to raise our family. I asked him if its possible for me to go on the deeds and he said no as I'm not on the mortgage and gets really annoyed with me for asking. Just wondering what other unmarried couples have done in this situation?

OP posts:
MindYourBeeswax · 21/09/2022 20:35

@Daringdarling
I do want to encourage the Op to take the only step she can-marriage or civil partnership. The only step that will help.
I have no doubt she is "lovely and intelligent"-it doesn't matter if she wasn't though. What matters is shaming her boyfriend into sharing his assets.

It also does no harm to point out to others who might be contemplating having children with a man who doesn't think they're good enough to marry or to share their assets with.
If a woman has no money, is a lower earner, goes part time or gives up work altogether, she must make sure that those assets are shared and the only surefire way to do that is marriage or a a civil partnership.

If the woman is well off on her own terms, has a great job and no intention of giving it up then it's a different ball game. The OP isn't in this position.

You pretending that her loveliness is impressing all his workmates and that the bank will get involved is really quite damaging and sugar coats the bloody awful hole she's in.

This is a man who not only doesn't want to share his assets he actually wants her to sign an official piece of paper declaring that she is entitled. he is covering his arse and she has left hers exposed.

He sounds like a piece of work and she has been gullible. Hopefully, he will trot down to the Registry Office but he sounds like a man with a plan and that plan is to keep the lot for himself.

Good luck OP!

Chuckiegg · 21/09/2022 21:00

My banking/legal knowledge is very dated but I would be surprised if a lender could enforce a declaration of no financial interest without insisting you received independent legal advice before doing so... any solicitor at that point would presumably point out how vulnerable your financial situation is.

bellac11 · 21/09/2022 21:04

They dont have to 'enforce' it. Shes not forced to sign it. If she doesnt sign it then clearly it impacts on the mortgage going though. She's been advised not to sign it for that very reason.

What happens when someone remortgages with their adult children living in the property. Do all the adult children have legal advice.

Chuckiegg · 21/09/2022 21:10

In my (dated) experience it depends. If the bank considered an adult child was contributing to the mortgage payments but not on the deeds they would insist on legal advice.
With a partner they definitely would as they would consider them to have a beneficial interest which would possibly prevent eviction in the event of default.
Barclays lost a big case when a wife signed security documents for her husband. She went to court and said she didn't understand the full implications of what she was signing. From that point all their procedures changed. This was probably 25 - 30 years ago.

Chuckiegg · 21/09/2022 21:14

Sorry OP this probably isn't helpful. I would see a lawyer for advice.

Daringdarling · 21/09/2022 21:16

@MindYourBeeswax

Oh, God. You are quoting me out of context.

I’m ‘pretending’ nothing.

She is his greatest “asset”. And she must have the confidence to realise that.

Nothing wrong in saying that.

A man with a partner/spouse who can string a sentence together and benefits him, is frequently promoted more readily. The sum of parts, so to speak. That’s society for you.

I want her to be aware of her worth in expecting more. And how valuable she must see herself as.

I’m certainly not sugar coating anything. If I didn’t think it was a hole she was in, I wouldn’t have invested so much time on this thread.

It is a matter of encouraging OP.

I have stated she must see her own IFA and her own solicitor. Not his. Paying them herself.

You are lacking understanding of how you and a few others have made her feel.

Some of the responses are outright fatalistic.
OP will feel hopeless and leave it for another decade.

I don’t think you want that either, do you?

I want her to speak up and to watch him.
She will start to see how things clearly, the more she does so.

Damn right, he needs to get down to that registry office.

I have absolutely asserted this.

If he won’t, there are a few things I can think of that might help in the meantime.

Her OP may be devious, uncaring, or witnessed divorce and it has made him overly cautious. He may think she will leave if she is better off and they marry.

We can’t speculate but this will unravel as she expects to be involved in financial decisions, to hear and be involved in speaking to the same organisations and people as he is.

Please don’t underestimate how coercive partners can be.

Things are often performed by guilt tripping (“look how hard I work”), and shame (“you are an embarrassment to us all by not working enough, nobody wants to hear what you have to say, they will never let you be on the mortgage, it’s the rules, not up to me, what will they think when they hear how long you haven’t been working for” and on, you get the drift.

Arguments like this are often alternated by generous gifts to confuse the person and negative viewpoints endorsed by enmeshed older family members.

I have a supper getting cold now. Must go!

bellac11 · 21/09/2022 21:32

Chuckiegg · 21/09/2022 21:10

In my (dated) experience it depends. If the bank considered an adult child was contributing to the mortgage payments but not on the deeds they would insist on legal advice.
With a partner they definitely would as they would consider them to have a beneficial interest which would possibly prevent eviction in the event of default.
Barclays lost a big case when a wife signed security documents for her husband. She went to court and said she didn't understand the full implications of what she was signing. From that point all their procedures changed. This was probably 25 - 30 years ago.

www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Barclays-Bank-v-O-Brien.php

This one?

The wife co owned the house though.

In OPs case she has no financial interest at all. She might as well be a lodger, theres no evidence she has financially contributed to the property

Which I think a lot of people have not considered, there may well be a reason why she didnt want to be part owner because that also means being part debtor.

MrsPerfect12 · 21/09/2022 21:58

When a mortgage is involved you can't be on the deeds of the house without being on the mortgage.

Blossomtoes · 21/09/2022 22:23

MrsPerfect12 · 21/09/2022 21:58

When a mortgage is involved you can't be on the deeds of the house without being on the mortgage.

You can.

Username112233 · 21/09/2022 22:26

@MrsPerfect12 yes you can

bellac11 · 21/09/2022 22:31

Not easily. Lenders dont normally allow it. Someone at the start of the thread said that HSBC are more lenient but Ive never known it in applications and Ive had a lot of mortgages

NCforthis864 · 21/09/2022 22:38

Minority view here but I think if you have not contributed to the mortgage, you shouldn't be on the deeds. The only way to protect yourself is equality - get a full time job, contribute to the mortgage, split childcare/food/bills. How you couldn’t have seen this earlier given you have previously signed such a declaration is beyond me. Reversing it, if my partner didn’t contribute there’s no way I would put him on my deeds. I would protect my asset completely.

MindYourBeeswax · 21/09/2022 22:43

She has got three children to him!

Milkand2sugarsplease · 21/09/2022 22:54

@NCforthis864 but she is contributing by raising their children and working part time is part of that.

We had a discussion before children that, in an ideal world, one of us would not work in order to raise young children. That wasn't possible, but me working fewer days was possible. DH wouldn't cut me out of the home rights because I'm not earning as much as him because I'm home with our children more - what a ridiculous suggestion 🤷🏼‍♀️

NCforthis864 · 21/09/2022 23:00

She is choosing to not work/be part-time etc. Choosing to not look financially protect herself. Also, having the kids together does just simply not entitle her to be on the deeds. Again, if I was the boyfriend, my main concern would be that the children are protected if anything happens, which they would be as they would inherit the property.

NCforthis864 · 21/09/2022 23:02

Also, the mortgage lender will encourage her to sign the document as… it’s in their interests - they want to make the money on the mortgage by it going through.

Milkand2sugarsplease · 21/09/2022 23:17

So we should all just stick out children in full time childcare in order to work full time to "protect" our rights to our home.... ok then....

I'll stick with DH who is happy for me to work part time, happy for one of us to be home with the children more yet happy for me to still have a home and a right to that home.

MrsPerfect12 · 21/09/2022 23:18

@Blossomtoes and @Username112233 I wasn't, we specifically asked and was told not unless on the mortgage. That's was with Halifax at the time.

Shitfather · 21/09/2022 23:18

Daringdarling · 21/09/2022 17:02

Couldn’t agree more with the previous two posts.

Is the bank asking you to sign the declaration or a solicitor?

I’m surprised that your partner is happy to list you as a dependent along with the children on the mortgage. Have you seen that paperwork for yourself, Unicornetto?.

Nothing is beyond repair yet. But he will have to be willing to help you, the way you have helped him.

Can you schedule a call on speakerphone together with the bank? Introduce yourself with your name and state that you are his long term partner of x years with 3 children within the same house. Speak up and say with regard to the forgoing of interest in the property “I am concerned. This will leave me in a vulnerable position. It is an extremely stressful proposition for me and my children” and record it on your phone, with it face down.

You may need it one day that evidence one day. Keep it safe, attach it to an email and send it to yourself.

Please do update tomorrow, Unicornetto, and together (Mumsnetters) on here will help you make a step by step list of changes towards improving your independence, that could be achievable.

Good luck tonight!

This is such a kind response Flowers

Shitfather · 21/09/2022 23:21

bellac11 · 21/09/2022 22:31

Not easily. Lenders dont normally allow it. Someone at the start of the thread said that HSBC are more lenient but Ive never known it in applications and Ive had a lot of mortgages

Interesting. I’m in a situation very similar to OP. There have been 3 different mortgages on the family home. Not once was I asked to sign a declaration (we have a DC). How would this be possible unless he lied?

BornBlonde · 21/09/2022 23:37

Nothing wrong with being emotional!

If he lives you and views you as a partner he will want you protected

Daringdarling · 21/09/2022 23:51

@NCforthis864, the OP having 3 children by him is a major factor but doesn’t necessarily have to be the only factor as to why she should be protected financially.

By virtue of having a uterus weighed down by carrying, and nurturing 3 children within it, having to waddle around for 9 months, feeling nauseous, sometimes incontinent, with the potential for stretched orifices that will never be the same again, prolapses later in life. Then there’s the breastfeeding every few hours, lost sleep, years of care for those children, stretchmarks.

Pregnancy represents a vast sacrifice of one’s body. It will never be the same again. The first partner/father of the first children, gets the best of the woman’s body.

A man doesn’t experience that body shock. They can have further children into old age but for a woman that gift to a partner has been sacrificed, it is precious because it has an expiry date. That is why a woman must chose extremely wisely.

You can’t really reverse the situation for the male gender for this reason.

There’s a cost to pregnancy and childcare in terms of sheer emotional investment: most mothers can never properly lose themselves in what they are doing when they are away from their baby; genetics have designed us mostly to bond and yearn when away from our babies to the point of aching, to produce breast milk at the sound of our baby’s cry.

There is the lost time of playing and teaching, being vigilant to our children’s needs.

OP will have sacrificed, money that could have otherwise have been earned and the invigoration of career advancement, to enable her partner to advance. And she will have lost the reassurance of her own pension for self esteem and independence.

Try employing a house keeper, cook, cleaner, launderer, gardener, interior designer, baby sitter/childcare, travel agent, event manager, book keeper/accountant, errand runner, party host to children and adults, nutritionist, personal food and clothes shopper/stylist, counsellor, fitness coach, escort, car valet, chauffeur, confidante, and more.

Think of how much this would cost per hour! Fact is women do the bulk of this with or without children.

And then there are bedroom activities.

Sure, one should only do what is enjoyable but let’s face it, certain acts require stamina and repetition, they take more vigour, than they do for the receiver should he do the same! ‘wear and tear’ on the joints, so to speak is a cost.

And finally, what about the ethics of a relationship, the value of compassion?

Would you want your most loved and cherished soulmate to suffer financially if you died?

It speaks volumes if a partner won’t consider this.

OP has earned every penny in what she has contributed to her partner’s career and life.

Daringdarling · 22/09/2022 00:00

@Shitfather , thank you for saying that.

Interesting what you have said about the three mortgages, not requiring you to sign anything.

NCforthis864 · 22/09/2022 00:09

@Daringdarling Are you genuinely saying that provision of sexual activities and the impact of pregnancy on a woman’s body are part-reason to be on the deeds?

Daringdarling · 22/09/2022 01:12

@NCforthis864 what a filthy extrapolation of relationship to make!

Repetitive strain injury happens in all kinds of activities and situations!

Women frequently have to peck their heads like pigeons over and over during a lifetime when they already have pain from pregnancy and childbirth. Having themselves sullied with messy liquids, many conditioned to think from some media that this is what is necessary to please and satisfy to prevent a man from straying. Many but not all, derive pleasure from making others happy and satisfied rather than the act itself.

I digress.

It must be an infinitely less exciting prospect when you are elderly, and poor, looking back on your life, thinking that all that time could have been more wisely spent listening to a educational or interesting podcast or emotionally investing in a relationship with someone who is keen to quell your stress with financial protection and involvement in life changing decisions.

There is a cost and a sacrifice in most activities of life, wouldn’t you say?

And yes, regarding pregnancy there is a major toll to the body’s ligaments and collagen compared with the OP’s partner body .

Her partner could potentially bound to a relationship with a younger version with fertile eggs whilst he has practically worn her out, if he so chooses.

Pregnancy could be considered a bodily erosion heaped upon an erosion of time in providing all the caring activities I mentioned previously.

Compassion for pregnancy ordeals, sacrifices of her body, her mind, her time, had she not been otherwise engaged in this relationship.

Think about where the OP would be had she been free to focus on studying /working/travelling independently in the same way that she has enabled her partner do?

He has enjoyed the fruits of her free donkey work in his shirking of home duties and profited for himself via capital appreciation of the property they all live in. A property she has likely maintained.

Her sacrifices have made it a smooth life for him.

Yes, seeing all the ways in which she has helped facilitate his life should all be acknowledged by her partner by giving her financial security via the deeds.

Let alone the purity of respect and love for one’s dearest.

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