How to spot the shite fathers early on?

[StellaStacey]

I'm newly single in my late 20s. I want to think about settling down and starting a family with someone.

I see so many of the same sort of posts on here about women having children with their partners and the father not being a parent at all or doing any household chores whatsoever. The man insisting he has a right to undisrupted sleep because he works a paid job and has zero appreciation to the hard work and exhaustion that goes into raising a child. I seriously at points consider staying childless because I don't think I can cope with this kind of setup and want to avoid it at all costs, not only because of how physically exhausting it must be but the mental torment of a partner completely disrespecting and think so little of you as the mother of their child. I know I would never get over the resentment. I read some of the posts on here and I want to scream at these men who are driving their partners to such breaking point for being completely and utterly useless. My god you are heros and extremely resilient if you have been in this situation.

As I jump onto the dating scene again I wanted to ask, are these useless twats easy to spot early on? Are there warning signs? If you ended up in this situation was it obvious looking back that it would be like that but you were love blind to the signs? What are the red flags? Did your DP completely change when a baby came along or did they always have these tendencies to avoid all responsibility?

Oh and another thing: is whiny like a toddler.

How does he deal with your first disagreement? Swearing/ignoring, or calm discussion?

That one from a previous poster is huge. Navigating a life of parenting together with a person capable of thoughtful, calm discussion is the difference between feeling like you have a partner who has your back or an additional child.

This is the kind of stuff that should be taught in schools. If a course in this existed, I'd get my kids signed up to take it age 16, with annual refresher courses too.

There's some really good pointers on this thread. I won't add much other than to note that my dh's dad worked long hours and his mum was a SAHM. His dad did nothing around the house or change a nappy, but he was involved when he could. This situation was acceptable for both parties.

He consciously decided to not be his dad and to play a more active role in childrearing and the household. So my point is that upbringing isn't necessarily an indication of what men expect.

'You can't replicate the situation of having children in any way but to actually have them'

I think this is true. My husband was the kindest, most loving and supportive DH, he ticked many of the boxes listed here and our marriage is still in a terrible place after DC.

What happened? Well for a start his parents both died of cancer within 5 years and that changed him as a person for ever. It was like some of the kindness and humour that I so loved died inside of him forever. How could I have planned for that? Should men with older parents be added to the list of 'red flags'.

You can't guarantee that any man is going to be brilliant husband or father forever, people change over time as life circumstances impact them.

I really dislike the theme I have seen on MN lately of placing an onus on women to choose the perfect partner (as if with a crystal ball) and at the same time maintain financial independence, so that (just in case he was not the perfect partner) she is not adversely impacted financially by leaving. It places so much responsibility on women and hints that those suffering the financial and emotional impact of a marital break up only have themselves to blame.

What I do think is that the nuclear family model of motherhood does not benefit women. The women I have seen really enjoying motherhood/thriving are those with a supportive and involved network of extended family or women friends.

Love this. Very well said!

I appreciate all the wisdom ladies! I'm at work but am gradually reading through the advice when I can

I don't think I agree with the mother comments. The husbands I know who are close to their mums also expect their wives to do everything for them despite living independently before and they are lazy dad's!

For me it was seeing my DH with my nephew or friends with children he was engaging, wanting to play getting involved.
He has one of those hobbies which is just for him but we are both outdoorsy people so we take it in turns going to do our activities and also do some together.

I also knew he would be a good dad because he was caring when I was ill, wanted to spend time with me and would consult me before making plans so chose to change how he did his hobby with his friends and wanted me to join him on night out. He would also offer to pick me up from work nights out off his own back.

I think making decisions/plans with zero consultation of the other is a red flag it's their opinion or what they want to do comes first which doesn't bode well for children

You can't predict how anyone will be as a parent. All the box ticking in the world doesn't stop it from being a massive leap in the dark.

They only use one arm when pushing the stroller.

Too cool for walkies. 🙄

I had that same conversation. We even agreed that neither of us wanted to be a ‘therapist’ or fixer to someone. That we were both independent, capable people. He had a good relationship with his two children and his mother. That after him being divorced and me out of a long term live-in relationship we wanted stability and emotional intelligence. And I still got it wrong!!! FF two children later my life became a nightmare which took years to recover from. You think you do everything right and it still can turn to shit. I’m happier on my own and doubt I will ever have another relationship and I will never never live with someone again.

I wouldn't have kids with anyone who wasn't prepared to consider taking shared parental leave.

It might sound silly but there's so much bound up in that choice that gives you indications of their priorities. Are they willing to be the primary parent for a while and deal with the drudgery/night wakings/housework? Are they willing to take the step back from work and emotionally secure enough to take months off to parent their child without worrying that it will seem 'unmanly' or 'unprofessional' or whatever? Are they prepared to reduce their hours when they go back to work as well as you reducing yours (if you do) to reflect that childcare is a shared job?

Others have given great tips too, around what they're like as a caregiver when you're ill , etc.

I'd also add flexibility. Family life always involves a degree of flexibility and sacrifice. If they're someone who struggles their priorities/preferences sometimes having to take a back seat, sharing the burden of the unexpected, or is unwilling to shelve their own hobbies and preferences to make room for someone else's, I'd run a mile before having kids with them.

I’m not sure I agree with this. DH was a semi-pro cyclist when I met him. Then went to just “hobby” cycling but still racing every week and riding for six hours at a time on a weekend and about three times a week in the evenings. When we had DS he was amazing and cut right back and really more than pulled his weight all the time. He’s been and is an amazing father and husband. He also knows other cyclists that have done the same.

I think the actual trick is to find someone that has already reached their peak in what they do and have lived life a bit. DH says he’s glad he did all his racing in his twenties and hasn’t tried to do it now with a family - unlike various others we know who drank their way through their twenties and are now trying to do iron men in their thirties and forties.

Slightly off topic, but been really struck by people on this thread blaming women for not spotting the red flags and failing to end the relationship immediately.

Hoping there’s some psychologists here to back me up, but there is NO-ONE who is immune from losing objectivity about their partners behaviour and the dynamic of the relationship.

anyone who smugly thinks they’re too clever to find themselves with an abuser/cheater/misogynist is an idiot. Or is not human.

I think it helps to know the signs, so you can spot the wrong ‘uns sooner, but it’s always a gamble.

I agree. Well said.

Yes and no. Sometimes I read threads almost with my head in my hands at the lack of agency some women seem to think they have in their own life. And I simply can’t be all ‘not your fault hun’ when a woman who already has kids picks a disastrous man to move in with them. We’re no sleepwalking through life blindly stumbling into bad luck, we have choices to make and a brain in our heads. Some people call it ‘victim shaming’ but honestly, making out we have zero control over our own lives and any wrong ‘un who wants to stroll into it is unstoppable just plays into the men’s hands.

If he cares a lot about his image he'll dump you for another younger woman. I'd trust more a scruffy man than one that one day will think I am beneath him due to the effects of age and pregnancies of his children.
Is he coming from a stable family? Mine had his dad running away with another woman when he was little and did the same. Totally normal for him to cheat and sleep around

I thought I had spotted a good man to have a baby with. Turns out I missed some huge red flags! Financially secure and hard working would be my number one (babies are hard work, my ex would go to bed at 7.30-8pm and leave me dealing with everything and had no financial stability and was early 40s)! Look at his past relationships... my ex told me two of his exes were 'mental' then when we broke up declared me mental too! His family background (this is quite controversial as it can go either way) but my ex's father relied on his mother to do everything! He wasn't a role model and in hindsight my ex took after him! I feel such an idiot to have missed these obvious red flags but am so glad I did as I have my beautiful daughter! But my ex love bombed me and showered me with love and kindness (that was short lived) and I was blind to everything else.

@Wouldloveanother I hear you. I’m not immune from having the odd judgy moment. ‘Fool me once…’ and all that…

But, there is a spectrum. There’s always going to be people who seem to be brainless when choosing partners. But the vast majority of people in shitty relationships are no better or worse at decision making than people in great relationships.

I always remember that awful story about the novelist who was happily married for 30+ years. Husband died and she remarried. Within months, the new husband had murdered her and ran off with her cash.

it can happen to anyone. It also shows how much luck can play a part in our lives when choosing a partner.

@Catastrophejane absolutely, there will always be women who ‘did everything right’ only to be completely blindsided. I mean that could be me one day 🤷🏼‍♀️ I do think in the majority of cases though it’s somewhat foreseeable.

I don’t think how he treats his mother has any relevance. Certainly not in my case. My kid’s father adored his mother.
He turned out to be a terrible father.
I wish alarm bells had rung when I saw the way he coped with stressful situations (not well to say the least).
Lack of resilience is the biggest indicator in my opinion.

I don't think you can every tell for sure beforehand. My ex dh on paper going by this thread would have been a recipe for a terrible dad going on what he was like before kids. He's loud, "offensive ", doesn't get on with his mother. But although he was a terrible husband in the end, he's always been a very good dad.

He did have our kids in his 40s though (I was younger than him) so perhaps that's a key thing because the petulance of youth and fiery testosterone starts to fade off then..?

How a man behaves with and speaks about animals, children, women, waiting staff or minority groups is usually instructive.

No Meghan haters, mens rights activists, or conspiracy theorists thanks either.

A firm grip on reality and basic human empathy are non-negotiable.

Shit partner = shit dad. Make sure you set your bar high enough.

Some of these answers have saddened me.

Exdp, perfect on paper. Intelligent, gentle and came from a super stable home with a perfect middle class mum and dad (nice people tbf). He was absolutely useless in every way. An entitled, nasty man child who couldn't parent a fish, let alone his own son.

Dh, a wild child with a temper to match, with a massively dysfunctional family and an abusive childhood. Fil is hideous and mil had left in dh's childhood (regular contact maintained). Categorically the best dh and the best father that I ever could have asked for. Hard working, stable, kind and caring. I couldn't have chosen better.