How to spot the shite fathers early on?

[StellaStacey]

I'm newly single in my late 20s. I want to think about settling down and starting a family with someone.

I see so many of the same sort of posts on here about women having children with their partners and the father not being a parent at all or doing any household chores whatsoever. The man insisting he has a right to undisrupted sleep because he works a paid job and has zero appreciation to the hard work and exhaustion that goes into raising a child. I seriously at points consider staying childless because I don't think I can cope with this kind of setup and want to avoid it at all costs, not only because of how physically exhausting it must be but the mental torment of a partner completely disrespecting and think so little of you as the mother of their child. I know I would never get over the resentment. I read some of the posts on here and I want to scream at these men who are driving their partners to such breaking point for being completely and utterly useless. My god you are heros and extremely resilient if you have been in this situation.

As I jump onto the dating scene again I wanted to ask, are these useless twats easy to spot early on? Are there warning signs? If you ended up in this situation was it obvious looking back that it would be like that but you were love blind to the signs? What are the red flags? Did your DP completely change when a baby came along or did they always have these tendencies to avoid all responsibility?

@TheVanguardSix Im so sorry An acquaintance of mine has recently gone through something similar. In her situation her DH was a teacher. I didn’t know him well but those who did said they were utterly shocked. These evil men - and they really are evil - can hide it so well.

Why invest time in an unstable relationship?
Because lots of relationships go through unstable periods but can be saved and indeed strengthened with better communication, understanding, patience…

Make sure you have a conversation about having a family. How will you arrange finances, who will take time off, who will do school runs, buy shoes, remember school friends birthdays, how will housework be split. If he thinks you are the default for all of these, run away.

Good. The more women that see this the better.

Lots of great suggestions.

Watch out for kindness and make sure to do the illness test.

How a man reacts to you being unwell tells a lot.

If you don't see him for dust and he is unconcerned, it is a warning not to be ignored.

My husband of 30 years, brought food, chocolate and magazines when we were dating and I was alone and unwell in my flat. A keeper.

Also saying No to someone tells a lot about their character.

How they react.
Like a functioning adult or a petulant toddler.

Selfish men rarely morph into selfless men.

Some may do, but I wouldn't take the odds.

Men living in a clean, tidy home, used to cooking and laundry is also helpful IMO.

I married one of those.
He didn't NEED a housekeeper when he asked me, he was well able to care for himself and had been doing so for a decade.

However! He quietly abandoned the cooking fairly quickly when we moved in together, as I was so much better at it apparently.🤔🙄

But I have let him away with that mostly.
He now has a few dishes that are his "specialities"🙄😁and he cooks fairly regularly.

In a long term relationship kindness and shared sense of humour are the keys.

Finally generosity.
Even the slightest hint of meanness and I would be gone.

Good luck.
Well done for thinking ahead.

Pick up the The gift of fear by Gavin de becker.

Great book for helping you to listen to your gut on people and situations.

So?
Better that, than a man who watches porn.
🤷🏾‍♀️

Create your own financial security, don't need to get married.

Then even if you do find what seems to be a good 'un and at a later date it all goes t!ts up, you have the financial wherewithal to walk away and keep what is yours.

Consider whether you would be happy if (when...) he turns into his dad.

Does he accept responsibility for his actions or is he always looking for someone to blame?

Does he truly consider women to be equal?

Are there any signs, at all, of poor anger management or resistance to dealing with any periods of poor mental health?

Can he cook and clean, willingly, even if you are happy to do the majority of these things pre-kids?

Can you both communicate effectively and with love and respect even on issues where you deeply disagree?

Does he look after you with love and grace or does he prefer (or need) to be looked after and be the centre of your attention? For some reason, despite my DH's mum being a traditional wife who was nevertheless a very unaffectionate mother to him, it never occurred to me pre-kids how jealous and resentful he would be of me having to actually mother our own DC. I now effectively have three teenagers in the house - the two actual teens are brilliant and he is the stroppy, angry, problem 'child' who is completely unable to parent them.

I would really scrutinise his parents relationship, with each other, with other people, with their own children.
No family is perfect.
My ExH, parents were divorced, because he found true love after 37 years of marriage. Good for him, that’s not the problem. The problem is he terrorised his family for 40 years because he was unhappy and everyone tip toed around him. He was THE script and verse.
His mum never said boo to a goose. Enabled ExH to the point it was/is seriously unhealthy.
They never had any friends, but a lot of dinner parties to keep up appearances and appease the Jones’s.

I married him after 7 years of being together. The day after we got married, he slipped into his Dad’s shoes, expecting both me and his mum to put up with it. I didn’t see it at the time, I was rather young, he was pushing 40 by then. Desperately wanted children, him, not me. We had one and then the full extent of what a fuck up I walked in, hit me. His mum would put up with his mood swings and they both expected me to fall in line. He had expectations of me as a mother and wife, but I wasn’t allowed to expect anything of him. Or to question him. Or to expect any support. His mum bless her, really tried to help me, but behind his back.
I brazened it out for 10 more years. I was labelled difficult and foreign, controlling. My family wasn’t welcomed and me visiting them was frowned upon, any friends I might have made were made very uncomfortable and unwelcomed. I did it anyway and that resulted in massive rows.

I wasn’t trying to change him, I was just trying to make sense of it all and marry what I thought were cultural differences.

One day his mother covered for him, again, and that was the last straw. I realised he turned into his father, or rather, he’s always been, so I bailed out, kid in tow.

Now, like his dad, he’s on his own, living a rather miserable small life.

I didn’t learn though, I went on to have another relationship with someone who hated his mother and despised his dad, hated his sisters and was a shit parent to his own child, perpetuating the mistakes his own parents made with him.

Eventually, I got it. I’m pushing 50 😂

The bastard I married had all the positive qualities of the ones you’ve listed above. What I missed however was 1. Where he was a mummy’s boy (which is fine) but this wanker decided his mother was allowed to rule our lives and was constantly trying to please her. The daily 2 hours calls became a burden on our marriage. Previously he was blasé about their relationship. But marriage made him want to climb into mummy’s lap.

One warning sign was talking over me. I let it slide. It was unbearable after marriage.

The relationship with mother thing is complex. I think probably we say this without really explaining what it means.

For me, it's about - does he value and respect his mother as a person with thoughts and opinions of her own, or does he talk scathingly about her with contempt as though she is an annoyance?

It's not about him never saying anything negative, not all mothers are lovely and supportive. But he should care about her wellbeing at least on a basic level. Also, unfortunately, all the men I knew with seriously abusive mothers had quite deep seated emotional difficulties with women - probably because we tend to play out our own childhoods in relationships - so that would be a red flag, regardless of whether his dislike of her is justified. Unresolved trauma makes relationships difficult and opposite-sex parent trauma is a killer particularly for hetero relationships.

On the other side, is his mother on a shining pedestal and can do no wrong ever? He will put her first ahead of you. You will always be seen in competition. She will probably be a nightmare MIL, especially as a grandparent. Nightmare MIL is not necessarily a huge problem, but nightmare MIL and your DH being on her side is.

DB loved my Dm and was very considerate to her but was a crap father, too busy working to give time to his DC, but his DF was a hopeless father and an alcoholic. I would look to the father of DP/DH for an idea of how they will father. That's the example they've been given.

My deadbeat bio dad was:

• close to his mother (he was her precious baby)
• a super tidy minimalist
• financially stable business owner

Those things mean NOTHING when figuring out if hes a good father.

I'm disabled and my father has wished me dead for being a 'worthless drain to society', my mam had no idea he held those views until after I was born and he definately got louder, prouder and more shameless with those views over time so I believe her.

@Oblomov22 I think that is very harsh.

Many women don't have what you call "emotion intelligence" due to their upbringing and learned behaviour from what they themselves have experience from the adults in their life.

If their Mum put up with crap, chances are they consider that "normal"

I was very fortunate to be raised by a very strong woman and and Father who despite the norms of the era in which I grew up was very much an exception when it came to pulling his weight.

My Mum would'nt have put up with a useless partner and she taught her 3 girls our value.

I have to remind myself of that when I see some of the threads on here and despair. They were not as lucky as I was.

Emotional intelligence often has sod all to do with it!

IMO the two most important elements are look at how interested he is in you as a person.
Does he know and care about your likes and dislikes in food, Can he name your close friends, would be know which book you are currently reading or who your favourite band is?
If you are unwell, would he be concerned, would he bring you painkillers or try to cheer you up?
Everyone seems to mention the relationship with his Mother, I would say what is his Father like?
From my group of friends whose marriages have lasted over 40 years and their husbands are good fathers/grandads, without exception all their husbands came from families where they did things together e.g. camping, caravanning, sociable activities where everyone 'mucked in'. Their Dads would take all the kids fishing, hiking and other outdoor pursuits and generally ensure that their kids were independent and could fend for themselves.
Consequently, of the sons that now have their own children, they are great hands on dads and view their partners as equals.

@KermitlovesKeyLimePie
i completely disagree.

emotional intelligence

the capacity to be aware of, control, and express one's emotions, and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.
"emotional intelligence is the key to both personal and professional success"

we all should have it. We all can work on it. Always.

for those that don't have it, it can be learnt. If they are that abused they'll need counselling and help. We can't just let them have none. Everyone needs it. It's a basic requirement.

Assembling some flat-pack furniture together is a pretty good stress test. As is a week's holiday. Unusual options for first dates though so start with the basics of watching how he treats other people. How does he behave towards customer service staff? What are his relationships with his family like etc.

DH jumps job to job. Its helped his career enormously. If he had stayed in a job he would have never got his salary to anywhere near it is now. He has had to lean on me at times to achieve this, but overall its worked for us both...

He has loads of friends. Too many. Some are extremely laddie. But I like. In terms of steady friends, that's a difficult one - we met just after he left uni, so big life change. The friends he had then and the friends he has now are massively different.

He can't stand his mum. He avoids her as mum as he can. We see her a couple of times a year. And to be fair to him this is justifiable! She's a complete nightmare.

He did have a psycho ex-girlfriend. Who his friends (male and female) agree upon. He has never done anything to make me think differently.

I think there is a problem in looking for Mr perfect on paper. He doesn't exist. And actually at some point you have to take a leap of faith and overlook something which others might suck their teeth about on this thread.

What I think is important is thinking about and talking about where you see yourself in a few years. Having proper grown up conversations about money management and sharing responsibility. It's about give and take and I think having someone who demonstrates that they are willing to compromise and take the strain when you need it is the big thing. It's amazing how people don't talk about the big things before marriage. How many children ideally and what happens if things don't go to plan. Could you cope with less children or are children the be all and end all. What do you want in terms of where you live. Are you savers/spenders. What's your long term attitude to money (pensions, buying a house). Where do you want to live. Are your lifestyles compatible (this includes the sport hobby guy - it's not necessarily a deal breaker as long as if you compromise to allow him to do something, you also have a plan to allow you certain freedoms and he is prepared to make time for family too. Hobbies don't need to go, if you have a strategy that works for the whole family to accommodate it.)

I genuinely don't think there is a blue print for being able to conclusively avoid dicks. I think the biggest conflict points are attitudes to money and how people prioritise rather and whether you match or not.

I suspect DH wouldn't match well with others. But those reasons also work well for me because we are on the same page and have worked together as a team.

Paying the bill at a restaurant can work both ways. On the one hand, it would be miserable to end up living with a skinflint, you don't want someone who never pays his way or fusses about splitting the bill down to the last penny.

On the other hand, if he never ever lets you pay your way then he's not really respecting that you are an independent woman, with an earning capacity in your own right. That could be an early sign that he holds old-fashioned views on earning, expecting that you would give up your job to bring up any children. It can also be "love-bombing" where he is expecting to be able to buy your affections.

The ideal situation is someone with the generosity to offer to pay, but also the humility to put his wallet away when you say "no, it's my turn".

OP, I think this is an excellent list!

Love this thread! 🍿

I think being a good father is separate from being a good partner and relates to actually feeling the children are theirs rather than a disposable consequence of sex that they put up with for their current partners. Obviously not all men, but some do see kids as accessories and do some crazy mental gymnastics to turn all that off if the relationship ends. The flip side is the involved fathers come with involved extended families and less control.

Great question. Watch him interact with his own parents (is it all take, or is there give there too), siblings, nephews, nieces (does he engage with them on their interests) over a prolonged period. This will tell you most of what you need to know.

Disagree with this.
These are the answers to your Qs about my dh

He treats his mother amazingly..always affectionate and doing jobs for her.

He lived alone in a boarding school 3000 miles away from his parents so 100% independent.

Parents are filthy rich and always had money. He has never had a mortgage as his parents are against them so they bought his first house. He paid them £50 a month as an "interest" agreement.

He can be typically bloke-ish, leave his socks about and dirty plates but can also decide one day to do a big tidy up..always doing DIY

He has always seemed family orientated and wanted kids. He is definitely ambitious though

The respect.... question a tricky one. On and off.

But lets just say hes far from.the perfect dad and leaves everything down to me
Has a short fuse with them, shouts and can be borderline abusive!
So I just wanted to pooint out those questions could mean absoultely nothing! Take it from me and my 20 years with him.

From my experience (or rather observations):

-when you don't have kids and man already is lazy with housekeeping work, you have to ask him 100x to i.e. do the laundry or repair something,
-isn't too ambitious re work. Is happy on low salary and no progress. It doesn't mean everyone has to be doctor or lawyer, but doesn't want any progress,
-is more interested in his hobbies than your life and gets really moody when can't meet his lads for football or so.