How to spot the shite fathers early on?

[StellaStacey]

I'm newly single in my late 20s. I want to think about settling down and starting a family with someone.

I see so many of the same sort of posts on here about women having children with their partners and the father not being a parent at all or doing any household chores whatsoever. The man insisting he has a right to undisrupted sleep because he works a paid job and has zero appreciation to the hard work and exhaustion that goes into raising a child. I seriously at points consider staying childless because I don't think I can cope with this kind of setup and want to avoid it at all costs, not only because of how physically exhausting it must be but the mental torment of a partner completely disrespecting and think so little of you as the mother of their child. I know I would never get over the resentment. I read some of the posts on here and I want to scream at these men who are driving their partners to such breaking point for being completely and utterly useless. My god you are heros and extremely resilient if you have been in this situation.

As I jump onto the dating scene again I wanted to ask, are these useless twats easy to spot early on? Are there warning signs? If you ended up in this situation was it obvious looking back that it would be like that but you were love blind to the signs? What are the red flags? Did your DP completely change when a baby came along or did they always have these tendencies to avoid all responsibility?

He lives independently (could be flatmates or alone) and cooks, does laundry, cleans up after himself, has no serious debt and has savings, is happy to make you a coffee/tea or cook for you. And shows an interest in YOUR work I.e supportive, proud of your achievements and asks questions. Finally is happy to at least occasionally tag along to things you like but he doesn't. Makes effort with your family and friends.

I find if they've had some experience of a pet when growing up or are comfortable around children - can play with them etc - it's a good indicator they've got a nurturing side so being a dad won't be a hated chore. Also I avoid massive workaholics past 30 - in your youth it's ok but if they haven't found work life balance by 30 they'll struggle.

And someone who isn't completely uncompromising about a hobby that takes him away every weekend. I have hobbies too but don't prioritise them over DP all the time. Balance is important or you'll be doing all the childcare while he's hobbying.

Don't rush it. It takes years, not months, to establish a balanced relationship.

Btw, my Dh is far from perfect. He Has loads of great qualities many of which I was looking for in a partner, he's old-fashioned, loyal is extremely quick witted. he's stable and doesn't get flustered and we can communicate and by God we've needed to - been through some shit (nothing to do with us but problems with the school and children that nearly broke me. I'm surprised we're not divorced to be honest. It's a credit to us that we aren't. )

He's also quite sulky and can be controlling. But I'm not shrinking violet and I simply have never let him get away with such a nonsense. But he's a diamond. I chose well.

As a pp said, Think about their absolute worst quality and whether you can cope with it - that's a very good reminder.

Gauge his attitude towards absent fathers in general.

I agree about the selfish hobby. They don’t change.

In my exh’s case, how he treated his mother (and his father for that matter) was also relevant.

Flipping this round, I remember being in a house share and my now husband coming round and not just doing our washing up after I'd cooked, but my housemates stuff that had been left out as well, and putting the bin out that we'd let pile up, as he recognised that they were being inconvenienced having an extra person in the house sometimes and wanted to contribute

Also spending a chunk of his bonus on hobby equipment for us both, it was money I'd never have spent at the time but he wanted us both to enjoy the hobby together and didnt feel right about getting himself the fancy stuff and me not.

He is still considerate, does stuff without being asked, and generous. Literally does at least half of everything including mental load, got up with the kids in the night to try and soothe them even though he was working and I was breastfeeding etc (unless they clearly just needed a feed as that would have been madness)

His dad is the same, when they stay with us he will pitch in with housework, doing stuff with the kids (not loads but as much as his mum)

Although he is quite shouty as a parent - I would never have guessed as he literally never shouts, ever, unless he is watching sports on tv, otherwise. But it's how his parents were with him when he was little (they are not shouty people in general either) and it kind of came back out when he had kids. So there are some things I think you wont know until it happens.

Completely agree. Not saying everyone who enjoys gaming is like this but for some men it’s almost a way of opting out of life.

When you’ve been in the relationship a little while, it’s perfectly responsible to talk about hopes for the future including kids and talk about things like:
how long and who will take parental leave
what religion will they be
what do I want to do with discipline
what type of schooling do I want my child tk attend
how do we feel about childcare
will either of us go part time

me and my partner had been together over 15 years before we started trying for a baby and in some ways I think that’s more difficult as you’ve had a huge amount of time just being a couple so you need to make sure you’re ready to add another person into that. I felt we got a lot of stuff out in the open, talked about fears and what we didn’t like from how we were parented, I made it clear I didn’t want to give up work so We would have to be able to afford childcare. It was so much better to get those expectations agreed before she came along.

Does he pull his weight?

A man who thinks he's 'helping' you by loading the dishwasher is not going to see taking care of his child any differently.

You want a man who cleans his house, cooks his food, does his laundry etc without drawing attention to it and wanting praise.

Does he think his job is more important than yours?

That's how it'll be if you have a child with him. He can't possibly leave work to pick up his child cos he's a big important man with a big important job.

What's the relationship like between his parents? Does his father pull his weight?

There are very few genuine surprises when it comes to how people will behave in a specific situation. (I say very few because obviously there are times when a person ticks every box then years down the line turns into a fucking monster)

But that aside, you need to look at their behaviour in other situations and you can normally extrapolate from that.

you need to observe and understand their behaviour for a long enough period because most (but not all) people can't wear their masks for ever.

Most of all, don't let your feelings lead you. Love is all well and good but decide with your head not your heart. Don't let emotions make you overlook behaviours that are clear indicators this person will let you down.

Very much agree with @SunSparkle

DH and I were together for 10 years before having our first

In that time we both discussed who would be taking what time off, we both also changed jobs to be more set up for having children

Which for him included taking a pay cut for a role with more flexibility so he could do 50/50 of everything

My husbands only negative quality is what many on here would see as a good one (can't argue, grew up in an abusive home and cannot have a good argument to save his life!) but I always had high standards, I filtered boyfriends quickly when 16+ as I knew what I wanted was a family but I didn't want to end up as just a mother.

Right ok @Oblomov22 you obvious know a random persons relationship better than they do. I'm not the only one on here saying they were blindsided or that their partners totally changed. Guess what, my ex also used to swear blind he'd never cheat, his parents split due to infidelity and he was pretty vocal on how shit it was. But yes, I expect you're right and we're just all not as good as you at seeing what is apparently always there if you look hard enough. I find your dismissal of mine and others' real experiences pretty offensive actually. It's pretty arrogant to assume that you have superior knowledge that contradicts what many people are actually saying. Of course in lots of cases there were signs, with varying degrees of obviousness, but not always. Don't know why you find that so hard to accept.

Also before you have kids you need to talk. How will it affect your careers, what childcare you will use, how it will fit into your working days, how it will be financed, what you would do for kids sick days, will you share mat leave, how will chores get done if you have a difficult baby etc etc

When we were thinking about our first baby we had planned that we would both change our hours so we could do pick up and drop offs snd finances would continue to be shared for example (I wasnt expected to still pay 'my share' of bills on mat leave for example)

If he had had an attitude of 'whatever you think' (so not engaged) or implied that it was my job to sort arrangements, or any hint of sexism in which of us did which role, or he wadnt going to change anything to work around children then I'd not have gone ahead as the responsibility and logistics of it all are the kinds of things that can wreck your career and lead to resentment if the other parent doesn't pull their weight

Avoid men who are on bad terms with their mothers.
They harbour a lot of unresolved shit towards females.

Not all mothers are angels.
This is naive thinking.

I have been with dp since we were teenagers so effectively grew up together and so I never knew what kind of father he would be. We had some rough times at University due to the usual out partying and not communicating well. However he is the best father any children could ask for.

I also don't thing some of the red flags people mentioned are so black and white for example his relationship with friends or parents.

My dp has a poor relationship with his parents but that's because he puts his children first and is protecting them. He has close friends but again prioritises his children rather than nights out when needs be.

He is career driven but values family life so we work well together 50/50. I'm off on maternity leave but even yesterday dp came home from a long day of work yesterday and took the baby upstairs for an hour or so to give me a break then suggested a takeaway. This is a small example of his thoughtfulness. He does all our ironing and vacuuming because I can't stand it. He will just pay for anything that's needed.

He will take dc our at least once a week in between work to the park or cinema etc just them for quality time and we take turns putting the children to bed each night, if I'm overwhelmed he will just do it no question. Also dp goes to the gym and running but waits till everyone is in bed sleeping then he goes out.

Funny thing is people in work probably think he is highly sarcastic, very particular about things and bossy. I love when he comes home and fills me in with the lastest work gossip we tell each other everything. But with his family he is just the best really, nobody is perfect and of course can be grumpy at times but generally things are good.

Anything that makes you ask questions. Any overstepped boundaries that are repeatedly ignored.
Any behaviours you think are designed to impress you.
Trying to persuade you rather than hearing you.
If they don't get you early doors they're unlikely to do so further down the line.

Look for someone that demonstrates that they function independently as an adult, emotionally and financially.

Thank you far asking this. Having reflected on it I realise that all the flags were there from day one and I chose to ignore them. All the things I would describe from us first getting together are the same things now. Except it's far harder to make a break, now that we have a child and finances make it difficult for us to separate.

I met my husband almost 40 years ago, and the things that made me realise he was the one to settle down with were the following:
Good relationship with his parents.

History of stable relationships. No history of "crazy exes", in fact was on good terms with both significant exes.

Good with children. Wanted children at some point in the future.

Good work ethic. Sensible with money.

Had his own flat (rented) that was clean and tidy, and was a decent cook.

No drama, and was obviously very into me from the outset, without being suffocating. Accepted that I had my own interests.

Was someone who was very at ease with himself.

He's been a great husband and father.

Absolutely this.

Also if he is already a father - how old is the child? A man with a young child and he has already left the family unit. Avoid.

Sadly though, there aren't always red flags. Mine was a gentle giant, sweet, everyone loved him. Till he discovered tinder.

Interesting thread.

I think most of the stuff mentioned already tend to be things that make up a good partner and what you're probably thinking about anyway (or should be).

And of all the advice given, I've not read many instances of actually sitting down and having a conversation about it and what a family looks like for both of you. What will your careers, home life, social life look like? What compromises are either of you willing to accept?

But I think it's difficult, given no-one actually knows how to deal with being a parent and the way it can turn your life completely upside down. Anyone who tells you that it's possible to predict how anyone will cope feeding a baby at 12:00, 04:00 and then doing a days work is full of crap, male or female. Tiredness is a killer and I've seen it ruin amazing marriages and turn both parents into the most unpleasant individuals ever.

And after 20+ years of successful marriage I can definitely say that neither of us are the same people that we were. Our success is partly due to us being compatible but also due to us changing in ways that have complimented us. It's pure dumb luck and we could've equally grown apart. So yes, think about finding a decent partner but don't overthink it as long happy marriages with consistently good people are somewhat rare nowadays.

I think the only way is to get to know a man and give it time before you get in too deep. If he seems reluctant to let you do that, then that in itself is a red flag. I know a guy who would tick most of the boxes on this list - kind to Mum, animals, polite, fun etc. - I've known him for years (work together) and he's charming and fun. I wouldn't go anywhere near him romantically and wouldn't leave him in charge of my kids (even to babysit). He has had many women fall head over heels for him and he does well for about 6 months before his anger management, selfishness and general arrogance surfaces - by that time most of them are in too deep and end up broken hearted and confused. Thankfully he doesn't have any kids (his choice, he at least recognises he wouldn't be a good dad) - but if he did I have no doubt he'd be fun and a "great dad" for a bit, and then lose interest when they got a bit bigger.

Signs of a good bloke:

• clear about what they want. does not avoid conversations about marriage, children, money or give vague answers to brush off questions.
• does not expect their hobbies/job to come before everything else in life. You can spot this one if they are reluctant to schedule holidays or family visits you want because they can't possibly miss a single round of golf.
• is kind/tolerant of children/animals
• lives independently and doesnt constantly forget to buy things like milk, toilet paper etc. Owns cooking & cleaning equipment and uses both.
• budgets reasonably. Red flag if they are asking to borrow money from you, regularly owe money to parents & siblings, or have a lot of debt.
• doesn't become a different person when tired, hungry, stressed. If they are directing anger towards you, ever, because their team lost the footie, the plane is delayed, the dishwasher broke, the washing machine leaked & wrecked the floor. How people react when something bad happens is important.
• they have good longstanding relationships in their life. Whether friends, family, colleagues, people who seem to only have transient relationships are a warning sign that people don't stick around them long.

I agree with many of the PPs. I would also add that if his friends have children really listen to how he talks about them. If he claims those friends are "under the thumb", their wives are controlling or they pity them for not having the same amount of free time then you can start piecing together how he views women and motherhood.

Good men are out there. My MIL is a feminist who was the main breadwinner for a significant part of DHs childhood. I'm not sure if that had an impact or if he's just a good man but he always pulls his weight and does more than his fair share of childcare due to my working hours.

Agree with most of these, another thing I have learnt over the years is that you don’t really know someone for around 2 years. So don’t have children before you’ve been with someone for 2 years because by this time, any mask will have slipped and you’ll know what you’re getting for the future. Don’t let red flags slide.

I don’t think you can spot them. Too in my experience, the men who treat their mothers well are mummy’s boys whose mother has spoiled them rotten by doing everything for them as a child while their father sat back and didn’t lift a finger to do any household chores or raising of them. Apart from bonhomie man to little man back slapping shit.

There’s also the issue of performative perfection. Men (and women) will perform the role of perfect partner and that includes making all sorts of perfect parent promises. The “no child of mine” or “if we had a baby, I would do….” Many can keep this up for years! Especially in regards to hypothetical parenthood…it’s soo easy to pretend you would be a perfect co-parent. It’s not until the baby is actually here that the cracks show and the whole fiction comes tumbling down.

I appreciate you motivation OP, I’d want to avoid it as well who wouldn’t? But I don’t think it’s helpful to list red flags that really are meaningless because imho the truth is you can’t predict who will be a shit father in advance and by pretending that we can, we are indirectly blaming mothers for choosing poorly who to have a baby with. This isn’t helpful to women faced with this situation as it really isn’t their fault what their partner chooses to do (despite what they may have promised), and it’s giving women another stick to beat themselves with.

If he is paying his sister to do his washing up run a fucking mile.