How to spot the shite fathers early on?

[StellaStacey]

I'm newly single in my late 20s. I want to think about settling down and starting a family with someone.

I see so many of the same sort of posts on here about women having children with their partners and the father not being a parent at all or doing any household chores whatsoever. The man insisting he has a right to undisrupted sleep because he works a paid job and has zero appreciation to the hard work and exhaustion that goes into raising a child. I seriously at points consider staying childless because I don't think I can cope with this kind of setup and want to avoid it at all costs, not only because of how physically exhausting it must be but the mental torment of a partner completely disrespecting and think so little of you as the mother of their child. I know I would never get over the resentment. I read some of the posts on here and I want to scream at these men who are driving their partners to such breaking point for being completely and utterly useless. My god you are heros and extremely resilient if you have been in this situation.

As I jump onto the dating scene again I wanted to ask, are these useless twats easy to spot early on? Are there warning signs? If you ended up in this situation was it obvious looking back that it would be like that but you were love blind to the signs? What are the red flags? Did your DP completely change when a baby came along or did they always have these tendencies to avoid all responsibility?

I don't think you can always predict how someone will react to become a parent but I would avoid anyone who:

• hasn't got their life together financially
• isn't emotionally stable (doesn't react well to stress and setbacks and can't control their anger) and selfish
• has some dodgy views about women and equality and is not pulling his weight in term of sharing chores
• is lazy
• regularly uses drugs and alcohol
• has mental health issues they are unwilling to recognise and address
• has a history of so called ''psycho' exes
• is a porn consumer
• is not up for a committed monogamous relationship with you.

Also the biggest mistake is to expect that you can change your partner or that they will magically change when a child comes. If they are a lazy, selfish, immature person, this is not going to improve when they become a parent.

OP, to be honest?

I really think the answer is not to worry about how to find the perfect man to raise a family with, but instead to know that you will always be ok.

You can't control things in life. You do the best you can with the information you have, and you roll with it. Having kids can really change people. People who seem together and prepared can absolutely find parenting overwhelming and just check out. People who are generally aimless, untidy, lazy, etc., can totally turn it around once they have kids, because it gives them a real sense of meaning and purpose.

I think "green flags" to look for depend on what you'd like from a life partner. So... it could be things like playfulness, level-headedness, ability to provide and hold down a stable job, desire to be a stay at home dad (if you'd prefer to be the one working), etc.

The biggest thing I'd personally look for?

Ability to communicate with love and respect.

You're going to run into problems as a couple - whether you have a pet together, are travelling on holiday, have kids, etc. There will always be issues to solve. So that's the number one thing I'd look for, because then you know you have someone you can communicate with, who is humble enough to adjust their approach when you raise an issue, and who is confident enough to raise issues when they are having trouble too.

You can also look at things like their desire to have kids and why they want them. How they feel about stay-at-home parenting (for you or them). Their values - do they have strong opinions that you'd disagree with, like boys shouldn't cry or play with pink "girlie" toys? What is their perspective on giving sweets and junk food to kids? Stuff like this. It's the kind of stuff you get to see over time.

Most importantly, I just wouldn't rush. The first year is honeymoon period - so if you can give it longer, wait at least a few years, live together, etc., you're more likely to see whether or not you are compatible.

But ultimately, think more about your ability to support yourself generally in life. Sometimes unexpected things happen and you can only do so much to try to pick a good partner.

probably not wise to make life decisions based on Mumsnet threads. Ppl without dh problems dont post threads asking for advice with them. None of my real life friends or family are feckless like you describe or like the awful partners on the threads here. Genuinely, none of them.

@Windowtea "If he's a lazy fuckwit before kids who doesn't tidy up after himself that will not magically change after them"

^ this with bells on

My ex lived in a shared house and blamed the mess on the others (!)

He was working away from home when we were first married so he wasn't there to make a mess. When he changed to 9-5 I got a rude awakening.

He also assumed that I would be the default parent even though I earned (a lot) more than he did.

Thank goodness I never had kids with him.

Unfortunately ticking all those boxes still doesn’t guarantee they’ll be a devoted and present father. I speak from personal experience,

Great question! I think it's really hard to know what the signs of a good/bad father are in advance of actually being a parent. I just looked at my ex playing with kids and thought aww, that would be nice But anybody can play with kids for half an hour. It's living with them day in day out and managing their lives for two decades through phases where they don't even seem to like you - that's a totally different thing. It's challenging, and above all, you want to pick a partner that will be an asset and complement you through that challenge. Probably the longest and most intense of your life.

How does he treat you when you are vulnerable - sick or tired or struggling with MH or anything like that. Does he take the load off you, show concern, try to make things better for you? Or does he ignore you (or even get huffy). You will be vulnerable for a long time with pregnancy/young children. See also: animals, women in his family (mother/sisters), people serving him (restaurant staff, shop staff, his staff at work etc) Do not look at what he says, look at what he does and how he says things.

Agree totally with pulling his weight in the home and proactively - he should not wait for you to ask him to put a wash on or make dinner. He should see that it needs doing, and do it.

More of a relationship one - what's his absolute worst habit/worst quality? (Ignore what it actually is, how do you feel about it?) Is it "It's really really bad but it only happens occasionally, so I can live with it" - you can't. Is it "I wish he wouldn't do that but probably he'll stop as he gets older" - he won't. Is it "Some people would find it a deal breaker but it (genuinely) doesn't bother me" - check yourself that it really doesn't, but this is fine. You need his worst quality to be something minor and annoying, not worrying, not scary, not dangerous, not even frustrating. Do not expect him to change automatically when kids come along. Most people find that very hard to do and he might not even be assuming he will have to.

How do you work together on projects e.g. planning a holiday, planning a wedding, or another family orientated event, redecorating a room. There should be a balance. You don't want him taking over, you don't want him sitting back letting you do everything so that he basically just shows up. Can you discuss and accommodate both of your preferences, do you value his input because it's genuinely good, does he value yours? Is it a good outcome at the end?

What is he like as a person? Is he somebody that you want your future child/ren to look up to? Would you be proud if your child grew up to be like him, as he is now? Don't take on a project because you want to mother somebody. You want kids, you'll have them to mother. Choose a finished article for your co-parenting partner. See also: Shared or at least compatible beliefs about things like religion, diet (vegan/sugar/organic/alcohol etc), pets, discipline, cleanliness, socialising, money etc.

If he already has children, what's his relationship like with them/the ex? This is more complicated but essentially you're looking for signs that if you split up, he'd still have the children's best interests at heart, and not use them to hurt you. Break ups happen - people grow apart. You need somebody who would be pragmatic and fair in that instance.

How do you disagree? What happens? Are you able to discuss productively with both seeing the other's side? Or do you avoid discussions, does he turn nasty, do you end up feeling it's your fault, are you scared to disagree in case he leaves? It doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be safe (no threats, no violence, even directed at objects) and productive (there is a mutually acceptable resolution at the end, not just ignoring the issue or avoiding it).

Never expect to train him to get better, he's not a puppy, or a fix-up project.
Watch out for the red flags early on, but they're not foolproof.
If his behaviour slips 18m in when there's still no commitments involved, move on. Don't fall for the sunk costs fallacy.
If he's crap with baby #1, and you're just coping, don't have baby #2. It won't get better.

Some of them you can't see coming. Some of them, you do wonder why she's enabled such transparent behaviour so long and ended up stuck in an isolated dependent hole when the red flags were hanging out like a jubilee display.

It's also worth considering your own background and values. What is your normal? What's your default?

@Oblomov22

"If you've got an ounce of emotional intellect then a lot of these problems that you read on the relationship boards won't happen to you."

That's what's naive. Smug, naive and victim blaming all wrapped up in one very black-and-white sentence.

You are sitting there happily thinking "oh, that could never happen to me". Sure, it may be less likely if you pick a man "carefully" (as per this thread) and don't opt for the bloke who is red flag central, but it CAN STILL HAPPEN.

Wow such great advice here.
I would add points for having done work that involves caring for people in some way.
avoid short tempers!

I think this list is much more reliable than a list of things that are positive. In this particular situation (looking for a good life partner) focusing on the negative aspects of a person is more valuable than focusing on the positives. How many times do we read of some arsehole who can be ‘really lovely’ as well so it clouds judgement.

Some men do change after marriage or kids however many were lazy shits before and the partner just didn't notice because it didn't inconvenience them too much. Throw a baby, sleep deprivation into the mix and Mike's inability to cook a meal or arrange his own roadtax is now another burden on already tired shoulders. That's when the shit hits the fan when the female partner (usually) expects him to understand that the baby takes priority so they need to pick up more of their own tasks and the man can't understand why his partner is nagging him about traits or behaviour she never took issue with before. I see it time and time again.

To avoid I sussed dh out in the early days but I was mid 20s and he was early 30s. I blatantly told him what I was after in a partner and if he wasn't interested or didn't display any of those traits, I would have moved on, plenty of fish in the sea and all that. It could have come across as forthright but by then I knew what I wanted and wasn't going to waste my time. It's having the confidence to do that and knowing that you can't change people, if they are haphazard and live a chaotic life, can't budget they aren't the best person to have kids with. Of course for those men that change after kids are born there isn't much you can do to anticipate that, however you can be confident in yourself, discuss and ditch them if need be. You never have to just make do but that comes from protecting yourself financially and knowing your own self worth.

🙄Imagine sitting down with a potential partner-parent and asking how one would behave in the event of a split.😂
Er, I deffo wouldn't be having a child.

Bear in mind that people are nuanced! It depends what matters to you and what you can live with.

My DH is a bit shit around the house. Has a 'big' job and very little time or inclination for anything else. I probably do 90% of the physical graft around the house and kids.

He's also kind, gentle, loving. He's great with money and does all the finance stuff/bills/car/tech etc. He supports my work, appreciates what I do. He loves the children fiercly and tries his very best to make parents night, sports day etc. He's doesn't raise his voice and is like a calming presence in the house that we all depend on. He doesn't have any time consuming hobbies and would far rather spend his free time with us than with anyone. He's not interested in laddy culture and cares about women's rights etc.

There are so many good points about him, but yes I could list some things that make him a pain in the arse to live with. 🤷‍♀️

For those problems that are foreseeable, which I don't think is all of them, the worst choices I've seen from both men and women when it comes to babies and marriage have mostly been time pressure ones. Where one or both of them is at the stage where they've decided they feel ready for the particular life step and therefore that automatically meant the person they were with must be suitable. All my friends are getting married, desperate for a baby etc. The 'lights have gone off' thing mentioned upthread and the hormonal urge for children.

You basically need a feminist. Our society is still so entrenched in gender stereotyping that many men, and women, find it hard to look beyond the traditional family set up. This leads to expectations the female will lead the care giving which does a disservice to both genders but often gives men a get out of jail free card. Look for someone who can see the inequality.

I think it is very difficult to tell. Everyone thought my DH would be brilliant and he barely passes. I have friends who DH really stepped up and there was concern that they would not but they have been brilliant. Tbf I think the same happens with women. There are women who think they will make an amazing mother but really struggle when they become a Mum. Others are treated as if they are "not maternal" but when they have children they really take to it. Men pick women based on who society (and their Mother) says is suitable as a Mother but it can all change when the baby arrives.

Absolutely this. One of my friends said 'he changed after the baby, he was perfect before'. No mate, he wasn't. Some people just see what they want to see.

That is an excellent question and really sums up what you should ask yourself before getting in too deep.

Agree about:

Hobbies having priority over your relationship. The hobby will continue to take priority over family life/duties. It really doesn't matter what the hobby is. E.g. gaming is often trotted out as a red flag but DH is a gamer and a brilliant dad - the gaming comes about fifth or sixth in his priorities - kids, me, work, house, family come first.

"Liking kids/being great with kids" is not a good metric. Being a good parent weirdly isn't about how much you "like kids". In fact that can be a red flag because some people who love (other people's) kids tend to like them when they are behaving well, happy, when they can do whatever they like to spoil them etc - they don't always see that flip side of when your toddler is screaming and scratching your face or your teen is resentful and grumpy, they want to be fun parent all the time, they don't want to do the hard stuff like discipline and getting up at night.

Also, if you're young enough to have time to wait I think it makes sense to go slow and be with somebody for several years before TTC. When you're older, you can afford to go for it a bit quicker because you'll have some relationship experience already. But some issues don't really show themselves until several years into a relationship.

I found this a brilliant read about choosing long term relationships

www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/why-you-will-marry-the-wrong-person-20160707-gq0k55.html

I think sometimes as well you get partners who are a somewhat manageable level of shit after one child and then it's the second that tips things over.

Why not? Talking about break ups is a really important thing to be able to do. If you're scared of breaking up then you don't have a secure relationship.

Also, though, it's not like it's a first date question! You can get a sense of how somebody feels towards their exes by spending time with them. People who are resentful and angry towards their exes is a red flag.

@namechange30455

if you classify that as victim blaming, so be it. The victim may be to blame. If there were red flags that they chose to ignore.

if someone chooses to cheat, the Buck stops with them. They are to blame.
Can you spot someone who has the propensity to cheat. Often.

Name me a scenario where you think the blame never, 0%, lies with the woman. That she takes zero responsibility for not spotting red flags earlier?

I agree with this. There are so many posters who say their husband/partner has walked out on them/cheated on them, and that they're 'devastated', 'can't believe he'd ever do that', 'love him so much and just want him back', 'he's the last person on earth you'd think would act like that', 'honestly thought we had the perfect marriage'! And then in the next sentence '3 years on and I couldn't be happier. I can't believe what I ever saw in him, he was always a selfish knob, my DP is the love of my life'. So they weren't really happy, he wasn't the 'last person you'd expect' and they didn't think they had the 'perfect' marriage.

Love really is blind. I know plenty of women who are or have been in bad relationships, and everyone else can see it and can predict it won't last, but you can't tell people. That chemistry that happens between people overrides any kind of sense.

Avoid anyone who has ‘gaming’ as their hobby - all my friends who married blokes who spent lots of time doing this have found they’ve married a ‘man child’. I’m not sure why apart from maybe their on screen time has reduced their experience of the ‘real world’ and they end up immature and clueless. Huge generalisation I know, but this is my lived experience 🤷🏼‍♀️.

I would also suggest not listening to everything said on MN.
It is only 1 side of the story and (sometimes) is being told by a bitter or deeply hurt person.

I think lots of people ignore early concerns or red flags because they really like the person. We have all been there! But these red flags do usually end up biting us on the way out 😂

Please don't be put off from having children because of what you read on here. There are some great relationship, parents and even co-parenting relationships!