To turn down a job because they refused flexible working even though it was higher paid.

[SummerFlops]

I have been offered a job which is more money. Not massively loads. It's in my home town so no travel costs. So taking into account that and the slightly higher pay, I would be better off by £190 per month.

I asked if I could work flexibly in the mornings and afternoons to do a school run for one academic year so till July 2023. I would make the time up by working earlier from home and later in the evening. School run takes 20 mins max there and back so 40 mins of the day total.

The reason why I asked was so that I could help out my partner who has to do 2 school runs at different schools so pretty hectic. No after school club possible. This is just for this academic year and then she will be fine as eldest will be in secondary and can make own way.

The manager refused saying that that isn't what they do and there's an expectation that everyone needs to be in the office and available at any time if anything comes up. Like what i have no idea - I am not an ER doctor or anything. She also insinuated that I wasn't committed to the job by asking this.

Looks like they don't have a flexible working culture and I feel like turning the offer down but at the same time the extra money would be nice too!

YABU - of course they don't have to accept your request and you're being silly for expecting it.

YANBU - they don't seem like a forward thinking organisation and they'll be other stuff stuck in the dark ages. Run for the hills.

Flexible meaning what though ? And you mention working for multiple companies? Does trust with tenure count for nothing ?

I worked for my first organisation for 19 years and now sector has exploded and there is a lot of opportunity.

I do not think most people will take the piss. Maybe it is different across sectors? Maybe difference in culture and attitudes.

The reality is most people will take the piss

If you're consistently appointing pisstakers, @OLP2019 , you might want to take a look at your recruitment practices to see where you're going wrong.

I've worked for 15 years, in a variety of roles, for an organisation with approx 1,000 staff. In that time, I've encountered 2, maybe 3, pisstakers. They either left because they were rumbled quickly and put under performance management or changed their ways.

did not expect the company I worked for then to care about my kids - they are not the companies responsibility.

This attitude is wrong. Kids, caring responsibilities etc. Who does that impact the most? They don't have to care about your kids but they should understand about equality and equity and how their working practices impacts these.

@ILikeHotWaterBottles that's a seriously extreme example and I agree a terrible employer ! Most SANE employers would of course allow sickness or disability leave or make allowances for such injuries (in fact i it's the law where I'm from to do so!) so your example is just silly frankly !
The reality is that before covid most people did not work from home and that's because MANY people are not productive working from home . My business allowed it on a case by case basis usually determined by tenure and proven trust. Often these cases were return to work mums etc.
I'm sure we'd make allowances for broken legs too !!
I just don't think it should be a given to expect to work from home anymore - yes we can be flexible for picking up kids and work around childcare but that should be discussed and not expected

You and @LakieLady worked for 15+ years in a role which is interesting I guess I'm talking about a new generation who just expect to dictate their working conditions from the off
I'm guessing you never did that starting out and nor did I !!

It's the law where I am from too, doesn't mean there aren't still shit companies out there. That one was international! Not a small company, just a shit one. Run by shit managers.

Ops job can be done from home, like mine can. And like mine, hers is common that it is done from home. If you want to be a rarity and have people in the office, you need some VERY good incentives, like a lot more money, benefits etc. Not a small amount more and the indication that you are going to be dragged through the mud if you dare think differently.

I don't think you've had much experience with a shit company which is good. But I have and this one has red flags galore. Run away is the only option unless desperate.

I had an interview recently and the MD told me that the other applicants had no caring responsibilities and therefore they're more employable than me.

I can't exactly complain, because all the little Director men go and do business lunch, probably compare dick and 4x4 sizes and play golf. My reputation would be in tatters.

The world of architecture everyone 👏

I've declined jobs before do the same reason with no regrets, and told them why so they know they're losing ppl because they aren't flexible.

I used to work on a project that was delivered by 3 geographical teams. One team had a control freak manager.

Senior management noticed that that team had much higher staff turnover than the other two, and started asking searching questions at exit interviews and next-in-line supervisions. It quickly became apparent that it was down to the inflexibility of that particular manager, and they had to change their ways.

@ILikeHotWaterBottles I'm not disagreeing with you I'm sure there are many shit employers out there
A couple of points

• op said she was offered a job so did she apply or was she approached ? I would expect if she was approached they've already decided they need her and should be willing to negotiate on terms
• the manager sounds like they need some training !
• playing devils advocate I can imagine they would expect some blow back from existing employees with no flexible hours if they hire someone new on different terms - I can relate to that but doesn't mean it's right - just becomes a case of if we do that for them we have to do it for everyone and in a small business that could be scary

Good lord that's sad in this day and age and I can't believe they actually said that when it's blatant discrimination and illegal !!

I think you have made a good call.

She sounds awful.

Questioning your commitment would be enough.

I think you would have always been on the backfoot based on her reaction.

Give feedback to the company if you can.

Her manner put you off accepting their offer.

It is amazing how flexible these unflexible companies expect YOU to be!

Actually, I knew the organisation had a flexible approach when I applied for a job back at the start of 2007, and it was one of the things that made them attractive as an employer. They've won awards for being a family-friendly employer.

And they're flexible in other ways too, especially staff development. If they think someone has an aptitude for, or interest in, a particular type of work, they'll often arrange secondments so they can develop those skills. A lot of people have switched to working in very different roles, eg MH work to facilities management, because they found they had a talent for it.

Mumsnet really is a bubble.

I find it really odd when people feel entitled to this kind of flexibility, when the vast majority of the population don't even begin to have that advantage, and many businesses aren't remotely in a position to offer it.

I live in Cornwall, part time in the private sector is still frowned upon here.

Most mums have to work in the public sector if they want flexibility here.

Otherwise you'll get sweaty men asking you "who's at home cooking dinner if you're at work until 5:30pm...."

True story. 👍

I find it odd that anyone would think people do or should take into account the population as a whole, rather than what's the norm in their role and sector when it comes to assessing jobs.

Our window cleaner chooses his own hours and works flexibly around school pick ups (he is my cousin's friend so I know the circumstances). Do you think he ought to be like well nah actually, the cashier at Tesco and the surgery team at the hospital can't decline to work on the school run, so I guess I'm not entitled to organise my working life around my other commitments to the best of my ability either? And does this apply only to flexibility, or to other aspects of jobs too?

@PerfectlyPreservedQuagaarWarrior "Our window cleaner chooses his own hours and works flexibly around school pick ups (he is my cousin's friend so I know the circumstances). Do you think he ought to be like well nah actually, the cashier at Tesco and the surgery team at the hospital can't decline to work on the school run, so I guess I'm not entitled to organise my working life around my other commitments to the best of my ability either? And does this apply only to flexibility, or to other aspects of jobs too?" This makes absolutely no sense

Can't tell whether you're asking me to clarify there or not so I will. What I'm asking is whether the poster I responded to thinks people do or should consider whether the flexibility they want is something the entire population have access to, and if so whether this applies to other aspects of their work too such as salary. I don't think that makes any sense myself.

@PerfectlyPreservedQuagaarWarrior I don't really get the point your making as a self employed contractor like a window cleaner can make their own hours and work around their lifestyle
Someone working for a corporate business doesn't necessarily have that luxury. Neither does a surgeon who is on call for when they're needed. Or a firefighter who is on call and works when needed
This is not the same as someone in a 9-5 corporate job
What was the point you were trying to make ?

It's £190 a month. Most of that will get swallowed up by the increase in energy prices I'd have thought.

That's actually pretty much my exact point. That the poster thinking it's odd for MNers not to take into account the norm across the population, rather than their own sector, is weird in itself. Because of course people don't do that, for all the reasons you list.

I think people see flexible working as different things. The problem is you are missing the same times everyday which means everyone who needs to work with you has to work your times too so if everyone tried to do this it would be impossible to book in meetings and it has to be fair to everyone. There is a big difference between you asking for set times in the business day off everyday to how a lot of people work where flexible working is counted as something like: This week I have meetings in the office or at a clients office on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday so if all stays quiet I will work ay home Tuesday and Friday (and May do a quick school run on their home days) unless something pings in the diary or say to their boss in a months time I have little Jimmy’s nativity 9-10 so can I go to that and work from home and make the hour up in my lunch break. That’s certainly how everyone I know works flexibly.

I think people see flexible working as different things.

Yes, exactly. My workplace is pretty flexible in that it will allow compressed hours, term-time working, hybrid working (although not usually full WFH), all sorts of different working patterns, flexi time, etc etc etc. But I wouldn’t expect to have a request like OP’s granted because it wouldn’t fit the way we work.

It seems like OP knows enough about her sector to be confident that this workplace could allow this and just doesn’t want to. But I’m surprised to see so many other people who think ‘flexible’ should mean ‘being allowed to work how and when you please on your own personal schedule’, and any employer which wouldn’t be ok with anything you might want is being a ‘dinosaur’.

Where we work we have meeting etiquette such as reducing the reliance on them, not arranging over set times etc. I am happy for my team to do school runs. I am happy to arrange calls around that. I find flexible employer tends to lead to flexible employee. Again, I guess it depends on the role.

People saying not everyone can have flexibility in their jobs are being obtuse. If your job can be done from home / flexibly - those are the jobs we're talking about
Our jobs are flexible working from home but we have yo be available from 9 to 4. That's because that's when meeting gs are set up. Meetings that include anywhere from 3 to 15 + people. Some informal, some very formal. Most people bring their own expertise to these meeting.

I can imagine having a discussion about whether to go ahead with a project, going over the budget and suddenly say 'sorry guys, continue without me for 1h, I've got to get the kids, but it's OK, I'll be back and you can all wait to move things forward until I do'!

Then there's the issue of catching up. 'Sorry boss, can you go over all what was said during the 1h I missed? I can't get my head around the figures that were submitted, why did they change?'

Unless you work in a field that means you don't interact with others, or meetings are all very set between 9:30 and 2:30, how does it work? What jobs do you do?

If I were still in the work force, @LuciferRising, you would be my kind of boss! As others have mentioned above, it's been my experience that employer and employee can both benefit greatly from mutual flexibility. I'm seeing and hearing a bit about "quiet quitting" at the moment, which to my mind is a reaction of some people to employers' demands that people give more of themselves than contractually required to their employers without any reward for it. If Jacob Rees-Mogg has his way, at Truss's behest, in the UK, there'll be a lot more "quiet quitting" as he tries to send workers' rights back to Dickensian times.
I'm so glad I'm out of it, but so sad for our children and grandchildren. Sorry, I digressed.