To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

I heard criticism of Mark Drakeford over his handling of the covid crisis by Welsh mumsnetters, you would have more of this if you did gain independence.
Good luck to you though , the Scottish parliament won't let it go, so why should you !

What's wrong with being British? Being proud of living in a United Kingdom on one small land mass? Do you want to build a wall, have VISAs for the millions of (English and Scottish) tourists each yeah?

why would anyone build a wall? do you think the Welsh are going to go hardcore communist and start testing nukes?
why would any government insist on visas? I can fly to Tokyo without a visa, why would I need one to drive over the border to do some shopping in Wrexham?

But what does a Prince actually do?

What is the point of the title?

It isn't as easy to 'get over' historical trauma as people suggest. Here in the six counties we have had over 800 years of British oppression. Our land was stolen and given to Scottish planters, we were punished if our Catholic faith was practiced, we were deliberately starved, our language was crushed, we were murdered by the B Specials, deprived of education, jobs and housing, and saw our brothers and fathers interned for being Irish. Much of this happened in recent years.

We were so oppressed by the British the trauma has been imprinted upon our DNA. How do you suggest we get over THAT?

So I'm with you OP. The scars inflicted on our forebears mean something and will always mean something.

So far on this thread, I have been told that-

• I don’t understand or know my own Welsh history
• i am thick/ stupid
• wales wouldn’t survive on its own
• why wouldn’t I want to be British anyway?
• the evidence I give isn’t enough as nothing would ever be enough would it

and people wonder why plenty of people in wales feel like the union is an example of a gaslighting abusive relationship

International law is very, very clear on that as are the constitutions of nearly every country globally.

Secession is not a democratic right

"Currently, among the constitutional laws of the world, only two states carry the right of secession in their constitution: Ethiopia, and the Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis."

• My Country, Europe

“In the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a nation-state based on the constituent power of the German people, states are not ‘masters of the constitution’.

Therefore there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede. This violates the constitutional order.”

• Ruling from the Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany.

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."

• Section Two of the Spanish Constitution

"France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."

• Article One of the French Constitution

"The Republic, one and indivisible, recognizes and promotes local autonomies; implements in those services which depend on the State the fullest measure of administrative decentralization; accords the principles and methods of its legislation to the requirements of autonomy and decentralization."

• Article Five of the Italian Constitution

"It is clear that international law does not specifically grant component parts of sovereign states the legal right to secede unilaterally from their "parent" state....

The various international documents that support the existence of a people's right to self-determination also contain parallel statements supportive of the conclusion that the exercise of such a right must be sufficiently limited to prevent threats to an existing state's territorial integrity or the stability of relations between sovereign states...

A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self-determination in its own internal arrangements, is entitled to the protection under international law of its territorial integrity."

• Canadian Supreme Court ruling on the issue of secession

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

• United States of America Pledge Of Allegiance

"The answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, ‘one Nation, indivisible.’)”

• Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia in 2006

“Article 52 of the Constitution is a unitarian structure, indivisible, indecomposable."

Dean of the Brazilian Supreme Court, Judge Celso de Mello

"WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth...."

• Preamble to the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia

Understand now?

Well I'm a viking!

There always one 🙄

If he was first born we probably wouldn't know all about his antics.

I'm part Scottish and Irish ancestry
Not sure where I'd end up living
Although I wouldn't mind living in Scotland tbh

@Searchingforsunshine You will find this link to the official Gov website regarding the Barnett formula interesting

www.gov.uk/government/news/latest-figures-detail-uk-governments-record-funding-of-18-billion-a-year-for-the-welsh-government

There is nothing wrong with Wales or Scotland wanting to have the opportunity to seek out independence. Absolutely horrendous the comments OP is getting here.

Just as an aside I’m Irish and while the English get blamed for most things it was actually the Scottish that first came over during the plantations of Ulster. A fact the SNP conveniently leave out all the time. In saying that we’ve gone beyond all that now and we all get on.

But I can’t quite see how a Prince of Wales title is causing such a stir? It surely can’t come as a surprise that it was going to happen? I mean King Charles was only Prince of Wales for 50 years or so. My understanding was that for it to be a principality, Prince William would have to be involved in the governance but he’s not?

As an outsider looking in the UK looks like it’s in serious trouble at the minute. All this mud slinging and counter arguments aren’t helpful. The current government headed by Liz “Thatcher” Truss doesn’t give a damn about the English. Let alone the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish. That should be more concerning than splitting hairs over history.

Agreed. Henry Tudor's father was a Welsh Nobleman, half brother to Henry VI. All the Royal since have Welsh Ancestry.

I am Welsh, I don't see this as an issue at all.

And couldn't think of anything worse than independence.

Jesus Christ on bike we wouldn't last the year.

Don't be silly @Fivemoreminutesinbed, you surely know how colonialism works, England having been one of its major proponents for a few centuries?
English teachers were sent in.
Much like Shell sent in white settlers to Kenya etc to nick all the respources while abusing & exploiting the indigenous population.

@Legrandsophie Ah right didn't read it. I was distracted by the baby. Yeah I didn't think they shipped English people in either!

Love your posts by the way. So interesting. I am really into history.

It's deeper than that - Wales have plenty of great advocates but, having less poltical power than Scotland and NI makes it harder, as is having any attempt quashed by Westminster.

Actually, Drakeford on the whole has come out of the Covid crisis in Wales more popular than ever - doubled his majority in the latest Senedd elections, and even non labour supporters in Wales note they have a deep respect for him.

The King was a player back in the day , but nothing compared to Andrew's antics.
The Royals have always been a bunch of rouges.

You think being Kentish is bad, you should try being Medwayist.

Thanks for the history lesson, but I think you’ll find we English prefer to exclusively focus on the Churchill vs Nazis stuff where we’re the good guys.

Exactly

Why does everyone want to be a victim when they live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Why do some English people get so triggered at the mere mention of Scottish or Welsh independence? If Wales and Scotland are such a burden you would think you would be happy to get shot!

Independence is not anti English and news flash it ain't about you...

• You are cherrypicking bits of history to suit your own narrative and leaving out really important chunks (and refusing to acknowledge this)

• You have provided no proof wales could survive on its own

• Opinion pieces from heavily biased sources are not evidence

@perturbed1 really? You've never heard of Plaid? How can you have missed it?

Especially if you visit so often?!

Here you go - in English, how inclusive

• www.partyof.wales/

www.plaid.cymru/

My passport will say just say ' Essex' in a few decades time at this rate (not a nice thought to be fair! )
Churchill had a Checkered past too
My Nan and granddad used to call him a war monger , they were not keen ( apparently)
They lived through both wars