To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

I think some people get upset at the fact that it highlights the fact that England is not always popular even within the UK itself.

England would probably prosper even better without Wales. Scotland and Northern Ireland. But then they would have to ensure that money was shared out among poorer parts of England.

I am surprised the Home Counties don't want to go it alone

On the contrary, you've shown a habit of being selective about Welsh history which us very common amongst Nationalists.

You claimed that "Wales is the poorest part of Europe", so that was debunked with statistical evidence from Eurostat. It makes no sense for you to claim that since Wales isn't even the poorest part of the UK itself!

I used an independent source as evidence - Eurostat. You, on the other hand, used one that confirms your own bias. It's a logical fallacy in your part.

There isn't a large scale demand for independence in Wales either.

Actually, complete independence from England is a separate issue to whether we should have a Prince of Wales. I think it would be very reasonable not to have one, it would not involve any economic re-organisation at all.

I have every sympathy for the bereavement, but it did not necessarily follow that William had to be made Prince of Wales the day after the Queen's death. And they could have consulted about it first.

Churchill had a Checkered past too
Indeed, he was a massive racist even for the standards of the day. Great War leader, horrible individual.

Of course it's anti English. Most things are. I'm proud to be English, just as you are proud to be Scottish.

@Upthebracket22 have to actually read that article?

It works on the premise that Wales keeps using the pound either with the permission of the Bank of England ie the Bank of England bails Wales out of it all goes wrong - questionable as to whether this is independence? Or without the permission of the Bank of England which means you have no lender of last resort and your economy isn’t stable.

Secondly it also requires interest rates to be zero or near zero in order for Wales to be able to borrow and issue debt it can afford. Global interest rates are going up so that also scuppers the argument made.

It's tradition that titles are handed out after someone has died.
Maybe they should have consulted the Welsh people first , but they are steeped in protocol.
Maybe things might have to be changed ?

I have French, Irish and English in me. who should I be angry at?

I agree with you OP. It felt like being kicked down once again yesterday when Charles made another Englishman price of Wales. I really hoped he would retire the title. The heir doesn't have to have this title.

Welsh independence can't come soon enough.

I don’t think Scotland and Wales are at all comparable.

England had a Scottish king in James I / James VI. He chose to rule from London, prioritise England and the English Parliament. It was the acts of a Scottish king that led to the unification, and even then Scotland got to keep many areas as it’s own through the Acts of Union. They had an opportunity to go independent in 2014 and they decided not to. So Scotland isn’t quite as oppressed as Wales was.

Wales was conquered by the English. It became English territory and has been since the 13th century, so I can see the frustration. However, it has been 800 years… legitimate question - how far back do we go when deciding what country borders should be. The Middle East was very literally carved up by the English around 100 years ago - should they start demanding it goes back to historical lines. Or what about Prussia? Or even the Italian states before they were unified? Or is all that too recent?

Telling people in Wales to get over it is certainly not the same as telling black people to get over slavery. The legacy of slavery is very much felt today, with racism towards black people, as well as high rates of poverty amongst the black community in the US - it is a direct consequence of slavery. How is Wales still suffering today because of what happened in the 13th century?

Great Wartime leader, very intelligent man.

Does it matter? I mean really matter? We can all find things historically that we feel offended about, but we have learned from those mistakes and the U.K. is in a better place because of them. Look forward, don’t look back.

Its not just historical though. Wales is constantly being undermined by Westminster - as the HS2 project shows.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-59596529.amp

@Upthebracket22 Agree with all my heart 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

What a silly comment @Culldesack most things are anti English, they really aren't. As I said it ain't about you!

MSM really has played a blinder!

And which Welsh born person should have the title? Tom Jones? There is literally no alternative as far as I can see. Unless you mean you want the title abolishing full stop.

So, who else do you want independence from?

"The then Prince Charles was made the Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester by letters patent on 26 July 1958,[6][7] but the official investiture was not held until 1 July 1969." from Wikipedia, I'm afraid.Charles was born in 1948. So handing on the title could have waited a month or 2.

Certainly, if the argument is that it is too late to reconsider now, there could be discussion in the months or years ahead, whether there should be any further Anglo-German Princes of Wales after William.

Well of course independence from the union that is the United Kingdom. If we wanted independence from England that would suggest England rules Scotland and Wales. Is that what you think?!

William is now:

21 June 1982 – 29 April 2011: His Royal Highness Prince William of Wales
29 April 2011 – 8 September 2022: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cambridge[309]
in Scotland: His Royal Highness The Earl of Strathearn
8 September 2022 – present: His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge[310]
in Scotland: His Royal Highness The Duke of Rothesay[b]
9 September 2022 – present: His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales[

Upon his father's accession to the throne on 8 September 2022, William, as eldest son of the Sovereign and heir apparent, automatically received the additional titles of Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland. On 9 September 2022, the King announced the appointment of William as Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester

He is a Royal Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (KG),[322] a Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle (KT),[323] and a member of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom (PC),[324] and was named a Personal Aide-de-Camp (ADC) to Queen Elizabeth

It's a bit of a joke really.

It reminds me of this

Martin: No! This is my cadet forces medal and this is my millennium star.
Theresa: Well...I think we can do a little better than that. You have provided aid to the royal family so straight away you can have the Star of Liechtenstein, the Wreath of Liechtenstein and...oh I don't know what the last one is called. The little wobbely stick of Liechtenstein.
Martin: Thank you.
Maximilian: Theresa! You can’t give him that! That’s our highest honour!
Theresa: Well someone’s gotta have it! (To Martin) Now, do you renounce Satan?
Martin: Errrr, yes!
Theresa: Super. That gets you the Holy Cross of St. Lucius.
Martin: Eh...I think you might be teasing me.
Theresa: Maxi...do we have a medal for teasing-recognition.
Maximilian: No
Theresa: Shame. You really earned it.

And:

Theresa: I am Her Serene Highness Princess Theresa Gustava Bonaventura of Liechtenstein, Countess of Sponheim and Protector Extraordinary of the Cantons of Nîmes. Who are you?

Think you missed one 🇬🇧

And it would change without the UK.? The country subsidises all rural communities from Scotland to Cornwall. Actually Devon is poorer than Wales

BillLius
You think Wales has it bad? You should try being Cornish.

You think Cornwall has it bad, you should try being Kentish

@oxydant you must really hate the EU the, forcing owners to destroy all those gorgeous Kentish orchards with their cheap and juicy mainland apple imports!

Strawman Argument - I didn't see anyone say Scotland and Wales were burdens?

It's logically fallacious to argue the English should be happy to be shot of them given above is a Strawman Argument.

On the contrary, the English tend to view the Union as all the British in it together which makes us collectively more influential globally. Which it does.

There is a petition circulating about this; there is another petition suggesting that the Welsh Rugby shirt should bear the red dragon from the Welsh flag, arguably the oldest national flag in the world. As opposed to 3 feathers with a German motto. Seems like a good swap to me.