To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

Is that the Wimbledon Worple Road separatists or the Barnes Worple Road separatists?

Posts as measured as this make me wish for a like button.

No they aren’t he oppressed in the present. However when the oppression has been done for centuries it will leave scars that may last even longer. It’s our job to heal the wounds and it will take a long time to do so.

What a hateful post. Full of bigotry and aggression. How ironic.

That's right, that's why there should be debate over the Tywysog title.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to preserve the fancy heraldry etc of the past and all the Royal flounces, well that came at a cost.

In Wales today, Welsh language is an important skill for many jobs; it is still spoken in a sizeable number of homes and there are Welsh medium schools.

It is hard to imagine someone being appointed to a role specifically as a "Welsh leader", who at best would identify as British rather than specifically Welsh, wasn't born in Wales, wasn't brought up there, doesn't mainly live there, doesn't intend to live there, has no close relatives who consider themselves specifically Welsh rather than British, whose kids are educated in England and none of the family speak the language at all fluently.

He wouldn't be eligible to play rugby or football for Wales as far as I can see.

I mean it's nice that he has managed to learn the National Anthem parrot fashion, and he did live in Wales for work for a couple of years, several years ago.

But it is not saying something very positive to Welsh people, hey, look, you guys have to have an upper class overlord, who is not Welsh but is supposed to be a "Welsh leader" in the twenty-first century, and the whole arrangement is a throwback to a swizz/insult/fudge that is many centuries old.

It is rather different in Scotland and England to Wales because of the history of the nations and their kingdoms.

So it would be helpfully modern to revise the Welsh arrangement in particular.

Also I don't think anyone is bitching about William - it is a political issue that merits open discussion and it would be great if Mark Drakeford's call for a review is heeded in the very near future/

😊x

I am Welsh. I couldn't give a shiny shit

Yes we know a valley became a reservoir in a pretty empty county at the time. Do you think Cardiff give a fig nimbyism at play here

Hedge schools in Ireland we don't have the monopoly. The Irish suffering was so much greater they must think we're a winging bunch

It's a pity the British couldn't follow the example of those other empires like the Mongols and the Moghuls and establish their empire with tea and cakes and handing out fluffy kittens.

Well if the Welsh want independence (and actually I don't know whether they do on the whole) then it's a decision they should be allowed to.make in my opinion. But I'm sorry but this is a load of shite:

JustAnotherPoster00 · Today 05:30

The devolved nations really are stuck in an abusive relationship with the English, we tell them we want our own voice they scorn us for it, they isolate us from our friends (the EU)

Are you Welsh? Because if so I think you've got this the wrong way around! You guys voted to leave thanks, and along with a lot of places in England totally fucked us Londoners over. But I think that was the point wasn't it?

A Scottish friend messaged me asking why a Welsh sign here.org petition was being circulated in Scotland for Scots to sign to support independence for Wales. I have no idea to be honest unless it's aimed at Welsh living and working up there and there's been crossed wires somewhere

Well you could take centuries to forgive others, or you could take a leaf out of the Queens book. She went out of her way to build bridges with people who actually blew up her uncle who she actually knew as it actually happened in her lifetime.

It only took her 33 years to decide to shake hands with the people who murdered her Uncle. I suggest you take a lead from her book and ditch your grievances based around people you’ve never met doing things to other people you’ve never met.

Actually, this was a quietly made factual point. No whinging at all, just fact.

It's interesting that the pro-royal faction on here is so keen to use words like "bleating" and "whinging" to dismiss an alternative point of view instead of actually attending to the issues in question.

And it isn't a competition to see who suffered the most. My nain was proud of the link to the other Celtic nations, whom she thought should stand together (we supported Ireland and Scotland, when I was a child, if Wales wasn't playing).

I am happy to forgive the English for the way they treated the Welsh in the past.

I am married to someone English in fact

I still think we should review the Prince of Wales title

It is .... a different issue.

Haven't read through all 16 pages yet but has anyone made the point that Wales never existed as a separate and whole kingdom?

It was a group of a principalities (which is why the Welsh dragon isn't represented on the Union flag).

If Wales as it is now, with its evolved cultural identity, wishes to become independent from the UK then that is something to which it's entitled under the principles of self-determination, but I do find the ideas of nationalism which are rooted in politics from 1000+ years ago somewhat erroneous.

I realise that it was not a kingdom as such.

I'm not arguing for independence but for a review of the Tywysog title which has some unhelpful baggage with it (rooted in politics from centuries ago...)

That seems fair - if you couldn't play sport for a nation, you shouldn't be able to reign over it. 😁

😂

@LetMeSpeak
A little fact for you. England has oppressed every single country/tribe/ethnicity that they have ever had contact with and the ones they haven’t were simply too strong for them to do so.

That’s a lie remarkable only for it’s absolutism, arrogance and hatred of the English.

Everyone has been invaded, colonised and oppressed…the whole world has done it to each other since history began. The English are no worse (or better) than any other country/tribe/ethnicity.

Todays English are all mixed ancestry anyway because England itself has been invaded, colonised and oppressed many times over- Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings (esp the Danes), and Normans. The 11th century invasions of Wales, Scotland and Ireland were done from England but by their Norman conquerors (not the English). Saying it was “the English” is a bit like claiming the Goths (Germans) invaded us when they were a conquered people compelled to serve in the Roman army during their occupation of Britain.

But these Norman invasions of Wales were not the first. Irish Scoti had invaded and colonised both North Wales and Scotland preRoman invasion and conquest.

Then of course, the Romans invaded and colonised Wales.

Lothian Scots then also invaded Wales in the 5th century after the Romans withdrew and Welsh legend holds that the kingdom of Gwynedd was established by Cunedda Wledig one of these Scottish invaders called the Goddodin. 500yrs later, his descendent Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is called the “last native prince of wales”. So if 500yrs of a Scottish family ruling Wales makes them “native” Welsh…then why is the current royal family not “native” Welsh despite definitely having Welsh royal blood from Welsh royalty that actually originated in Wales (not a kingdom established in Wales by a Scottish invader) and having ruled Wales since 1485?

why is the current royal family not “native” Welsh

Well, re William in particular

• he doesn't apparently identify as Welsh in particular as far as we know
• wasn't born there
• didn't grow up there
• wasn't educated there
• doesn't speak the language (but learnt the anthem phoneticzlly
• doesn't live there
• doesn't plan to make it his main home
• isn't educating his kids there
• doesn't speak Welsh

Why do you think he's Welsh? Seems fairly obvious he isn't

@Discovereads 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Best post if the thread!

Also, there’s strong evidence of Irish settlers and raiders in West Wales in the post-Roman period.

I love how nationalist try to use snippets of history to support their bigoted arguments and get owned by the wider story.

And it makes me laugh to see @herecomesthsun making a long list of ways William can’t be Welsh and not realising that it makes them look entirely closed
minded and exclusionary. Slow clap.

What a load of cobblers. (From a resident in a devolved nation)

Wonderful post.

Dont be silly, ethnicity is independent of where you are born, live and what language you speak. Just ask anyone who’s been in a diaspora.