To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

lol William has not been in a diaspora.

The title he has been awarded, Tywysog Cymru, means leader of Wales. There is not much evidence of leadership and less evidence of any sense of him being actually Welsh (see my previous helpful posts). So it is meaningless.

I wouldn't argue for full independence, and if the clear majority of English and Scots want a monarchy, let them have one

But the situation in Wales warrants some intelligent discussion with Mr Drakeford.

ethnicity
/ɛθˈnɪsɪti/

noun
the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

I didn’t say he had, but people are pretty mobile beings. They emigrate and immigrate, the set up lives across borders or seas. But that doesn’t change their ethnicity. Especially when we are talking about a very ancient ethnic difference between one part compared to another part of the same tiny island. And of course, when Welsh Royalty took the throne…of a country which included Wales and England, they kind of had to move to the capitol city of London.

Ethnicity is more complex than where you live, where you went to school, what language you speak, and where your children are raised. It’s more complex than that. We have lots of ethnic minorities born, raised, educated, speaking English and raising children here that while British also belong to ethnicities other than those native to Great Britain. There are Irish, Jamaican, Nigerian, Pakistani, Indian, Swiss, German, Polish, French, Spanish, etc…they’re British but they are also the ethnicity of their original homelands and many of them keep alive the traditions and cultures they brought with them. So ethnicity doesn’t mean you can only be a member of one social group at any one time, and you can inherit ethnicity via ancestry.

I think if you analysed the DNA of a lot of people living in Wales you would find a heady mix of many European cultures.

Nationalism is a path to fascism and we should fight it because we are on a slippy path.

So ethnicity doesn’t mean you can only be a member of one social group at any one time, and you can inherit ethnicity via ancestry

How far back do you go though?

I have 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great grand parents etc

They all come from different parts of the UK and abroad. Then I look at the relations further back.

32, 64, 128, 256 etc.....

At what point would you say - that 'ethnicity' does not count?

Or really - what does ethnicity mean?

At least 1 of my great grandparents came from Dublin. I know that people who can trace an ancestor back to Ireland claim to be Irish or to have Irish roots. The fact that one of my 8 great grandparents - well, at least 1, came from Ireland doesn't make me have any real connection to Ireland.

Thank you @TheLassWiADelicateAir
An excellent post.

Well, the truth is that we are all mixed to a certain extent and it shows up in DNA tests. So, in my opinion, it’s up to the individual what counts most to them, there’s no set rules on ethnicity. It’s part of a persons identity and everyone can choose which bits they identify with.

I’ve had my DNA done and it confirmed the family tree I’d built back to 13th century. It’s also pretty typical for where I am ethnically from, though not where I was born, or was educated, or grew up, as I was a military brat and so had a nomadic childhood. So for me, ethnicity isnt about birth place, schools, or where I’ve lived because they were always temporary stops. For others, ethnicity is about those things, and that’s absolutely fine. I just think ethnicity is actually pretty complex and very individual.

I agree that ethnicitiy is complex and individual and if you read my posts, you will see that the factors which I suggest contribute to ethnicity are diverse.

I'm in fact arguing for a pretty broad approach to the concept of nationality here.

I'd say there's considerable doubt about whether it is right for a modern Wales to have William as Prince of Wales and we will see what the consultation looks like before the investiture.

Constitutional royalty only hold their positions under sufferance from the ordinary people who live in the lands they supposedly rule.

I’ve had my DNA done and it confirmed the family tree I’d built back to 13th century

So you have traced EVERY single relative up the family tree to the 13th century?

That's 2 ^ 21 grandparents - which is a massive number.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/15/new-prince-of-wales-william-charles-ancient-capital-prefers-owain-glyndwr

On the contrary, you have not demonstrated the current Royal Family ancestry is mostly Anglo aka English and German. Rather, you've asserted it as opposed to demonstrating so.

I, for example, laid out Queen Elizabeth II's Irish ancestry which is quite substantial. Likewise, the Welsh ancestry was laid out which isn't insignificant either. The Scottish ancestry is very significant as well. Already, that chips away at the idea the ancestry is mostly English and German.

King George I's mother was the granddaughter of James VI of Scotland and I of England, so he wasn't fully German either.

The Royal House Of Windsor has deep ancestry that isn't English or German. You might attempt to ignore that, but that just reveals your bias.

No, self-determination is balanced against the parent states right to territorial integrity. Places like Wales, Scotland and Catalonia are only entitled to devolution in international law. They have that.

And so, there is zero democratic right to independence. Nearly every country in the world regards it as illegal and not a democratic right.

Just two regard it as a democratic right.

Nationalism is based on a distortion of history and has been around a very short time in human history. Since the 18th century. Before that, people identified with their tribes which is why ancient maps outline lots of different territories across the British Isles, for example.

Have you been raiding SNP literature or something?!

In saying "independence is normal", you've just fallen into the False Dilemma Fallacy there.

The reality is that UNIONS are very much normal around the world.

United Kingdom
United States
Germany
Australia
European Union

And that's just off the top of my head!

Absolutely no reason why Unionist states cannot get along, you know. You appear to be relying on the Circular Reasoning Fallacy in the rest of your post.

But it doesn't stand.

Maybe we want a say in who our princes are and believe in a democratic society that includes the choice and voices of its citizens

Hmm I think some of us think democracy is a bit overrated since Brexit and Boris.

And lets face it, they keep voting for the DUP in NI as well.

Maybe there's something to be said for having a benign monarchy or Prince of Wales foisted on you. People in London voted for Boris as mayor twice.

I don't know, I am not much of a royalist, but I do think entrusting important decisions to ordinary people can go very very wrong.

Guardian pfft 🙄

We've got a fruit cake running plaid. Gordon Brown on speed dial with the senedd, no wonder folks are a bit uptight when they've a Scot pulling their strings

"Nationalism is based on a distortion of history" is your own point of view.

"and has been around a very short time in human history". So what? So has the welfare state , so has safe widely available contraception, antibiotics, etc. Some are good, some are bad.

Your posts are very funny to read. You might be my neighbour :)

Actually, I've linked to the Royal family tree previously, so I would refer you back to that. It's pretty well understood that there is a very strong connection with European royalty, that is hardly a minority opinion. Much stronger than the Welsh component.

As I said before, there are a lot more points of contact with Scotland and England for the Royals than with Wales, a sizeable chunk of Welsh people are things #not my prince and that will be to do with having someone who doesn't live in Wales, isn't planning to live in Wales, doesn't speak the language etc. They seem like a very nice, very posh, very rich family based in the South of England which is lovely, but they don't seem to have much connection with Wales.

See also the definition of ethnicity. Shared culture. Don't see much evidence of it here, beyond that they might watch Strictly too? There is a Welsh language & literature & musical traditions etc.( They both like rugby I suppose.)

Also there is nothing wrong with the Guardian, it is one of the better UK papers.

thinking not things

On the contrary, it's not difficult to evidence how Nationalism distorts history for their own ends.

Consider Scotland and Braveheart, for example. A major distortion there centres around the idea that the English practiced Prima Nocta in Scotland. It's actually a myth, but has long been part of Scottish Nationalism.

Consider the 800 years of oppression with Irish Nationalism and Republicanism myth. Completely ignores the abuses of the people by Gaelic Lords, for example. Consider the distortion that most Irish people supported and 1916 rising in Dublin - they didn't.

In each case, the distortion is intended to spread a particular political ideology. In both cases, the English cast as enemies and opponents today. A major driver of PSF/PIRA murder was Anglophobia and historical distortions.

And so on.

So, you want to compare political ideologies with government policies?

Faulty Comparison Fallacy. Your error in logic. 🤔

Now you see, that IS a little bit racist.

You write like an intern excited to get access to Wikipedia. I'd ask you how you objectively quantify the "major distortion" you quote, but I won't bother to read your long-winded reply.

I remember your post on alphabets used for Slavic languages ... a classic :)

So, you'd rather engage in Ad Hominem nonsense (personal attacks) instead debating any given specific point?

Well, everyone can see that and this suggests immaturity on your part in terms of debate. 🙄

You must be very sensitive. Asking how you objectively quantify the "major distortion" you quote is ignoring a valid question.

On the 11/09/2022 06:58, you asserted:

"I have, they are still predominantly of Anglo German descent, I'm afraid. "Predominantly" means "mostly", you see."

Do you still stand by that?

It has been shown the House of Windsor has extensive Scottish and Irish ancestry as well as direct descent from ancient Welsh Royalty.

That alone puts a sizeable dent in your assertion that they have mostly English and German ancestry. Remember, George I, the first Hanoverian King of England, has direct ancestry straight from the Scottish King James VI. His mother was the granddaughter of the Unionist King who unified the Crowns of England and Scotland as well as ordering the creation of the first Union Jack.

This is the first thing to deal with.

The culture in Wales is not really different from that in the rest of the UK. There is genuinely a shared British culture across many areas from politics, sport, music, art and so on. You know, 70% of people in Wales do NOT speak Welsh.

In this line "that will be to do with having someone who doesn't live in Wales, isn't planning to live in Wales, doesn't speak the language etc", you seem to be saying a person has to be all of those things in order to be considered Welsh or part of the Welsh national ancestry. You've narrowed the range of possibilities to a binary choice which then leads to a False Dilemma Fallacy.

Prince William can speak Welsh to a degree - not many of the 29% of Welsh people who speak Welsh are fluent in it either so fluency cannot be a criteria. His wife also learnt Welsh. William and his wife did make their first family home in Wales too. They did live in Anglesey for a time as well. And they both have Welsh ancestry.

It appears you've decided to arbitrarily narrow the range of possibilities as mentioned above. It seems to fit your own bias here.