To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

For example, a little googling turned up a 17th century map where the Wales borderappears to extend some way towards the Forest of Dean, beyond its current positioning.

Monmouthshire always had a vague status, right up until the 1970s. The parish of Welsh Bicknor was an exclave of Monmouthshire by virtue of the lands having been sequestered from a Catholic family and given to a landowner from Llansoy in 1651. So returning it to Herefordshire was just correcting that act.

"Could in part" is a pretty vague statement. It proves nothing. How big is this part? Is it a majority? How many English retirees live in Leave-voting Blaenau Gwent compared with remain-voting Monmouthshire?

Sorry but that is utter drivel and the figures don’t back it up. It’s been widely debunked and seems to be based on one strange professors idea about who is ‘most likely to be Welsh’ based on where they live, and figures if English ‘blow ins’ based on a 2011 census. As far as I can see there’s no quality research to back up his claim. Interesting that he blames Devon and Cornwall, why isn’t their leave vote attributed to English retirees? I’m willing to be a lot of money there’s more of them residing there than in Wales. Anyway, mustn’t derail the thread too much.

And the same poll says that less than a third believed that its use should stop. The balance being made up by "don't knows". So monarchists still outnumber republicans in Wales by a decent margin.

I haven't been able to find tables on Yougov's website for that poll. I always prefer to check a primary source.

Most of those newspaper quotes are anecdotes. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". I certainly wouldn't take the Express as an unbiased source - tabloids love shit-stirring because it keeps circulation up.

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that a tragedy like Aberfan should not be used to score political points. Particularly when there is little basis for making those points. The tragedy should not be part of the discussion.

I'm Scottish and Swingsarefun is right

And do you feel that being rude to Scottish Nationalists is the best way to win the argument, and any upcoming referendum, @derxa ?

I think this tone is not going to help the Union stay together long term.

Thank God there will be no referendum any time soon.

Well many Scottish nationalists seem to think that flinging vitriolic abuse is the way to persuade people, so this is tame by comparison.

Some political party in Australia piped up the day the queen died to abolish the monarchy the prime minister shut them down fast

I’m from Kent.

Kent was also an independent Kingdom, as was Essex, Wessex, East Anglia, Northumbria, etc. I don’t expect anyone to be familiar with the details if Kent’s historical wars, I don’t want to turn back the clock to a time when Britain was a load of tiny Kingdoms all constantly fighting stupid wars, and I don’t care at all who the duke of Kent is at any given time.

Let it go. Let it gooooo. Or, seek power and try to change things from a position of power. But whining on the internet to a bunch of strangers is not going to make the Prince of Wales go “oh wow better change my title.”

Also - bit puzzled - if the title Prince of Wales has been used by Welsh natives since the fourteenth century, then how come the last native Prince of Wales died in 1282? I don’t get it.

Also - bit puzzled - if the title Prince of Wales has been used by Welsh natives since the fourteenth century, then how come the last native Prince of Wales died in 1282? I don’t get it.

To the best of my knowledge, the last (native) Welsh Prince to officially have the title was Llewelyn ap Gruffydd, who died in 1282. Following this, its been used by the ruling monarchy (and by Owain, a Lords son, not an actual prince.

Until Prince Arthur Tudor got the title from his father Henry VII (Henry Tudor) in 1485 and he was a Welsh prince. Tudor (Tewdwr) is a Welsh royal family name, that of the Deheubarth Kings of South Wales. Llywelyn ap Gruffyd was a Prince of Gwynedd, the kingdom of North West Wales. Every other Prince of Wales we’ve had since 1485 is descended from the Tudors and is of Welsh royal blood.

Wales had several kingdoms before the Normans invaded it, and added it to their already conquered England. Wales wasn’t one Kingdom with only one Prince of Wakes.

Oh gosh I hope you’re ok OP 😂

^I’m from Kent.

Kent was also an independent Kingdom, as was Essex, Wessex, East Anglia, Northumbria, etc. I don’t expect anyone to be familiar with the details if Kent’s historical wars, I don’t want to turn back the clock to a time when Britain was a load of tiny Kingdoms all constantly fighting stupid wars, and I don’t care at all who the duke of Kent is at any given time.

Let it go. Let it gooooo. Or, seek power and try to change things from a position of power. But whining on the internet to a bunch of strangers is not going to make the Prince of Wales go “oh wow better change my title.”^

This. A thousand times over.
I'd hazard a guess the OP knows sod all about battles in the ancient Kentish kingdom or the development of language in the area or gives two shits about why someone is still titled Duke of Kent.

And this whole pride about where one was born, I just don't identify with at all. Be proud of real achievements in your life, not the place you happened to be born which is something one has no control over and certainly isn't an 'achievement .'

Measured words from Mark Drakeford

nation.cymru/news/mark-drakeford-prince-of-wales/

unbelievable that he wasn’t told before hand.

Thanks, I am aware of that, being Welsh myself.

I didn't reference the Tudors, in my post, apologies for that.

It occurs to me that if William is so keen to "serve" Wales, as he has publically said, then one option might be to change the title from "Tywysog" to one of the Welsh words for "servant" - or steward, maybe?

And there could be consultation about that.

So that way, there would be consultation, and it wouldn't feel so artificially imposed, and there might be a lot less impetus to protest. And we would get way from the negative history.

Just a thought.

Give him time. It would be in bad taste to say anything at the moment

Not sure that he needs to be told. It's been a given for a long time.

The entire tradition of the Royal family is based on war, subjugation and other (now) morally distasteful things. The Monarchy, it's titles and traditions are built on these events and practices and almost everything is connected to something considered morally dubious by today's standards. There is hardly a nationality that hasn't been the victim in all this at some point or another.

I guess my point is that while I can see why some people in Wales might find this objectionable, there isn't much that isn't in some shape and form. And that is much wider debate.

The mistake was in announcing this so suddenly and without consultation; they had had time to plan it!

William is heading off to Wales, apparently on Owain Glyndwr memorial day - this Friday and so very tactless! and there have already been arrests for public protests against the Royal proclamations (for Charles) so if they want to avoid further trouble then a cunning plan would is needed.

As regards Welsh people pointing out that this title is a bad idea, it would always have been a bad time - before the Duke of Edinburgh died as he was clearly poorly, after his death as the Queen was bereaved, before the Jubilee would have been distasteful, after the Jubilee would have been distasteful and so on. We are where we are!

Yes, exactly this!

The OP is enraged that the royal family has unilaterally decided to do something without the say of the people. That's the whole nature of a monarchy. You have no say. You are not asked for your opinion. Your superiors and betters reign over us - they have decided what will happen and you must fall into line.

Reducing it to a nationalistic argument about the English imposing their culture on the Welsh ignores the bigger picture. None of us should have hereditary leaders - Princes, Kings or Queens - bestowed upon us. All these titles are examples of oppression. Not of the English over the Welsh, but of the aristocracy over the people.

Well frothing at the royals is somewhat redundant. Gates, Bezos, like to think they do. Davros and the WEF do in reality. So if you're wittering about oppression and who runs things it ain't royalty these days

@CMZ2018 😂 Well the thread took on a life of its own really.

Theres been a lot written about it over the weekend in Wales and much dissent. The senedd are our elected representatives in Wales so might have been good to run it by everyone first in a similar way!

A Question asked to everyone in Wales- Do the people of Wales still want a Prince of Wales? Or something like that…

But that’s not how this hereditary monarchy bollocks works is it?!