To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

consultation

As regards the point about the borders, Owain Glyn Dwr was fighting in the early 15th century and sacking border castles. Later that century the Tudors were ascendant, The castles saw military action during the Civil Wat and there was not, as far as I know, military disputation of the borders following that, but the borders may have been redefined by civic means.

For example, a little googling turned up a 17th century map where the Wales borderappears to extend some way towards the Forest of Dean, beyond its current positioning. Also an 18th century map where the Welsh border appears to extend into Cheshire beyond where it was today. My nain (who was made by circumstances to leave school at 14 but was very bright) used to discuss this, and minded very much, though I haven't pursued this.- it would be interesting to read more about it, if anyone has any links.

Later that century the Tudors were ascendant

You mean the Welsh Kings and Queens from whom the current Royal Family are descended…

If 30-40% Welsh people - and maybe more? -- have reservations about having a Prince of Wales, given the history of the title and the family etc, then maybe some consultation would have been a good idea. And maybe the family's timing on this was poor.

But polling shows that opposition is around 25%, support around 60%. So no where near your threshold.

I've some vague idea that the Tudors were in fact half French and half Welsh and that Henry VII was born in Wales.

What happened in the 13th century was somewhat diluted by the events of the 16th.

I know its not that simple but nothing ever is when it comes to complex lines of royal family, battles and marriages engineered to seal treaties and strengthen power bases

No you honestly haven’t looked at the genealogy. The two male “German” ancestors out of the several thousand ancestors in the royal family were the grandsons of British expats. Theres as much German blood in the RF as there is Native American blood in Sen Elizabeth Warren…less than 1%. That’s not “predominantly” in any book.

As for the “Anglo” they are pretty equally English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Norman…like the majority of British people. However they are descended from Welsh royalty and so the Prince of Wales title is actually theirs by right according to the rules of descent and inheritance.

Have a read of the local government act of 1972

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research
The question of why Wales voted to leave the EU can in large part be answered by the number of English retired people who have moved across the border, research has found.
Despite being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, Wales voted leave by a majority of 52% to 48% in the 2016 referendum – a result that took some analysts by surprise. However, work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters

@JustAnotherPoster00 Sorry don’t buy that!
UKIP’s Neil Hamilton won a seat in the Welsh parliament and held it till 2021.

There was a lot of anti migrant feeling in Wales during the brexit campaign.
from memory I think Nigel farage came to Wales fairy often for pro Brexit rallies that were very well attended!

It's not direct descent from Henry VIII et al, however, so I wouldn't phrase it like that.

Well, different polls say different things.

It might be an idea to look at it more closely.

www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1667351/Prince-Princes-Wales-backlash-William-Kate-Queen-death

"Wales threatening backlash over new Prince and Princess’ allegiance 'Will they support?'
THE PRINCE AND PRINCESS OF WALES' new titles have caused some division between the people of Wales, who are uncertain about whether or not the accolades should continue to be used as Prince William and Kate inherit the new names.
.....
BBC Breakfast reported on the fact that Welsh citizens are unsure about the use of the titles, though, and their support will come under question.
...
Welsh correspondent Hywel Griffith, reporting from Cardiff Castle, explained the potential backlash which could come from the decision.

He recalled how a recent poll suggested less than half of the Welsh people believed the title should continue and said the Wales' may want to look into the situation."

@herecomesthsun

It is a direct descent. Unless you are one of those misogynists who don’t consider the female line important.

That’s a lot of prejudices showing.

There’s no such thing as “direct descent” unless you abide by the old patriarchal Roman idea of primogeniture which ignores female ancestors. All descent is equal in my opinion.

However they are descended from Welsh royalty and so the Prince of Wales title is actually theirs by right according to the rules of descent and inheritance

What do you mean descended?

You mean one of their 1000s of ancestors was Welsh Royalty?

How many other ancestors do they have who may be German, French, Scottish Royalty - or maybe....a commoner? I am sure they could find great great great great great great great great great Grandparents who were commoners.

Obviously, I don't agree with the geneological assertions and they are not supported by the facts; hard to know where to start to unpick it.

Apologies for citing the Express again, but here is an article about their heritage (and of course there's nothing wrong with having German heritage per se)

www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1551407/royal-family-german-family-tree-evg

The Tywysog title wasn't theirs to appropriate, so you could argue it isn't theirs to inherit; and these days we are often more sensitive about cultural appropriation etc.

In fact it is better than a direct descent from Henry VIII. It is a direct descent from Henry VII (the don of Owain Tudor).

You mean one of their Great ^ 20 grandparents was Welsh royalty? Or maybe more than 20?

That's a lot of ancestors.

Funny that.

I am also a direct descendant of Henry VII

(Probably, given it was 550 years ago so he must have many many many direct descendants alive today)

Henry VIII, Elizabeth, Mary and Edward's line came to an end with Elizabeth, that is what I mean.

If we accept female ancestors, then it's likely, as I said before, that there are people walking the streets of Wrexham or Chirk who have closer lineage to Llewelyn and Glyn Dwr than does William .Which makes the idea of him inheriting this title meaningless on that score.

And there might be a question mark over whether Wales wants a Tywysog at all given the history, or, if they want one, whether they want the appointment to be on merit.

More info about the "46% want Prince William as Prince of Wales" poll.

nation.cymru/news/next-prince-of-wales-charles-william/

Polls might be contradictory, but it does look to me as if this merits more discussion.

@herecomesthsun perhaps it is you who needs to check up on historical detail. The Queen was really upset by Aberfan, visiting the village whenever she was in the area. The survivors really felt that she empathised as a mother of young children (Andrew and Edward were of a similar age to many of the victims at the time).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42101460

Sorry Ddraig, I know about Aberfan and that the queen visited, what point are you making by this?

I don't think that it follows that because she visited Aberfan (which was a very good thing to do as monarch) that we should then have her grandson as Tywysog without further discussion?

I'm pretty sure that they consider themselves to be British, of which the Welsh are a constituent part.

Re the perception of William as Welsh and its bearing on the discussion around the title

From the Express article

"Welsh correspondent Hywel Griffith, reporting from Cardiff Castle, explained the potential backlash ...

"... some people question whether modern Wales with this devolved power and government should have someone who lives outside of Wales as its Prince.

...others have said maybe there should be a debate over whether the people of Wales want this.

"We have to go back to the Middle Ages to see the last native-born Prince of Wales."

But it is direct descent from Henry VII so phrasing is fine!