To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

What date would you like history that’s actually meaningful to start?

Hear hear, just look at how bitter things are in the US these days. Elections fought in court, storming of the Capitol, vested interests able to prevent the removal of the Second Amendment...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The whole thing is like the Truman show with people just obsessed with the clothes Kate wears, the pictures of their children and the antics of William and Harry. Sycophancy at its worst. Or opium for the masses.

OK then. I guess you want to abolish organized sport and pop music because a lot of people have a prurient interest in the private lives of the people who do it.

I have, they are still predominantly of Anglo German descent, I'm afraid. "Predominantly" means "mostly", you see.

It is not "reading hate", at all, as I don't hate either English or German people (I am very pre European in fact), and so I can respect and even admire their heritage. Which is minimally Welsh, even you must agree.

As regards the extremely tenuous links to Welsh ancestry, as I have said before, going that far back, huge numbers of ethnic Welsh will be connected by lines of descent to Llewelyn and Owain Glyndwr and the princes of old. If we could do DNA analysis we would find that random Welsh people walking the streets of Wrexham and Chirk had more connection with these old princes than William.

So I would say (which is a very positive and love-filled statement) that we are all princes by descent in Wales. And we don't need a (predominantly) English bugger thanks.

That should read "pro European" not "pre European". I'm fairly mature, but not that old.

The sooner London breaks away from the rest of the country the better. Free London. Liberate London. Vive la Peckham.
We can do a deal to get through Kent and rejoin the EU. Then we will have a labour/ Lib Dem coalition with Charles as King. Everyone will get a free puppy or pony and chicken tikka and apple crumble will be our national London dish.

But this thread was not originally about Welsh independence (which would be a more complicated issue) but about whether the King's son should have the Wales title; also we don't have to "make up" Welsh culture as Welsh history, traditions, food and even an ancient language and literature already exist.

I'm welsh and I was happy when he was given the prince of wales title. Not because I don't know the history but because I don't feel we are oppressed by the royal family!

Wimbledon won't put up with being ruled over by London. We want independence from the oppressive London regime.

Though I fear once we do have independence, it may embolden the Worple Road separatists to revolt.

I love it. The Passport to Pimlico approach.

We were all separate kingdoms once. Why do we just devolve to that. But how far are we going back? Are we talking Anglo-Saxon heptarchy or Brythonic Celtic tribes?

Will happily become a Silures or a Mercian.

@herecomesthsun

It comes across as gate because it is the approach that considers ‘one drop’ to rules someone out as British. Remind me again who was in favour of denying national status to people with one drop of foreign blood?

It comes across as bigoted.

Charles was born in Britain
Elizabeth was born in Britain
George VI was born in Britain
Edward VII was born in Britain
Victoria was born in Britain

The last king to be born in a Germanic state was George the second.

How many generations before you consider them not Anglo-German? My mum’s family came from Ireland in the 1850s yet I have never considered myself Irish. Yet according to you I should!

Hate! Not gate. Typing too fast.

But, I completely agree, and have written all over this thread, that they are British British Nationality but mainly English / German descent. I am only writing about the ethnicity because people keep querying it and raising it. It doesn't bother me one jot.

If the British people as a majority are happy with the Royal family, and they ? probably are, then lets stick with that (for now).

If 30-40% Welsh people - and maybe more? -- have reservations about having a Prince of Wales, given the history of the title and the family etc, then maybe some consultation would have been a good idea. And maybe the family's timing on this was poor.

well neither gate nor hate is very appropriate really

Also, if we are claiming to have a consideration of history here, there was fierce fighting over the Welsh/ English border for many centuries - and people haven't forgotten. Many people haven't forgotten the attempts to stop children speaking Welsh in school or mining disasters or Welsh children being in service to English houses or Capel Celyn or Aberfan, all in living memory.

I wouldn't say that is about hate, but it is about national memory, which is precious; And national memory includes the stories about the Tywysog title being appropriated from the Welsh people. That appropriation shouldn't endure without consultation.

History, you know is not just in books or in (partly mythological) lineages.

I can’t believe people are trying to blame ‘retired English people ‘ for Wales (and other regions who have completely screwed themselves over with their leave vote) voting for Brexit! How many retired English people live in Wales? Enough to sway the vote? Surely the stats by region speak for themselves. The South East out of all the regions wanted leave the least. How does the ‘home county toffs’ theory square up with those stats? Are we really suggesting they’ve all moved to Wales? The North? This all sounds like some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to me.

@herecomesthsun

I’m well aware that history isn’t just in books. I’ve spent the last two years travelling all over Wales tracing Welsh history. So thanks for the condescending tone.

By your reasoning Charles is also Welsh. He speaks Welsh, has a house in wales and is descended from the last Welsh prince defeated by Edward I.

There is something poetic about him being descended from them both. A very traditional approach to unifying two fighting forces through blood and marriage.

People spouting Welsh nationalism need to be aware how bigoted and exclusionary they sound. Especially to people like me who essentially the children of three of the home nations but are being made to feel like filthy English pigs by drum banging nationalistic rhetoric. I can’t imagine what those on the borders feel like now the ‘no true Welshman’ line is being rolled out again.

The Welsh border hasn’t been contested by two nations since the late 13th century. When Offa’s Dyke was built in the 700s there was no single kingdom of Wales. He was contesting the border against the king of Powys.

And I would suggest what people haven’t forgotten is all the half true nationalistic facts spouted by Plaid Cymru.

Not sure how you make out Charles is Welsh, as he isn't? He might own a house in Wales and speak a few words, but I suspect he doesn't identify as primarily Welsh and probably the vast majority of people in the UK have a Welsh ancestor somewhere if you go back 12-14 generations. In fact what is remarkable is that is actually so little Welsh connection on the very well documented Royal family trees you produced.

I'm not sure I'd call myself Welsh nationalist even as I'm not arguing for full independence, just a more thoughtful approach to this Tywysog/Prince issue.

It makes for a much more focused discussion to stick with the issue in hand, you know.

People choose to become footballers etc

William and George - I guess it's a sense of duty instilled in them

So now it’s about how he identifies? British perhaps?

@herecomesthsun

But this is the issue at hand. How can you separate the complex ties between England and Wales and out entire history from the idea that you consider Prince William to not be Welsh enough to be Prince of Wales.

Once you start down that road of who you consider ‘us’ and who you consider ‘them’ it begins to be extremely tricky and complicated and ultimately divide and destructive.

Have you asked King Charles how Welsh he feels? He appears, from his own words, to have a genuine, enduring love for the place.

But apparently Welsh descent, loving the people and the place, speaking the language and supporting Welsh industry and culture is not enough to make you Welsh enough to be Prince of Wales.

You are essentially saying only those born in Wales get to consider themselves Welsh. Don’t you see how bigoted that sounds?

It’s not about whether the Prince of Wales is Welsh or not. It’s about whether it’s appropriate to continue the title at all, given the oppressive nature of its origin and the fact that Wales is a devolved nation with a Parliament of its own.

If you are seriously arguing that Charles and William consider themselves to be Welsh rather than English (or Scottish or any other nationality) then I think you should share the evidence for that with us.

and yes, I'd agree that there are grounds for considering the title inappropriate, and for needing further cosultation