Statement made by Ukrainian First Lady

[Fallonangel]

The Ukrainian First Lady has made a statement addressing the UK telling us while we are counting our pennies they are also counting their casualties.
Aibu to feel selfish moaning about my lifestyle reductions?

@RosaGallica
Russia is not a friend to our people. It never has been, because we are rivals.
You just can't say that. It's not true.
Russia saved us during WW2. There is no question about that. They were the whole reason that we were not invaded. They absorbed, at terrible cost, Hitler's armies. Nor could we have liberated Europe without them.
The debt we owe Russia has never been acknowledged (unlike the dept we owe the US) and a lot of the bad feeling over the last few decades comes from that fact.
And what do you mean 'Rivals'? Rivals for what?
The Russian people are under the control of a cruel and ruthless ruling power at the moment. Just as Germany was is the past. Under similar circumstances, I don't believe British people would behave much differently.

Did Russia plan to save us - or was it a response to Hitler attacking Russia?

Once Germany attacked Russia, then the Western Front was a side show.

What do you think would happened if Germany had not attacked Russia?

Policies, alliances and wars depend on circumstance and leaders at the time. There is a school of historical thought - not saying I agree with it, but it’s there - that suggests Stalin would have invaded Europe anyway and only Hitler stopped him. Russia has long had designs on Eastern Europe for various rationalisations, dating right back to the last days of the Roman Empire in the East (Byzantium).

I’m not sure the sidetrack is entirely necessary. The main point is that Russia is in the hands of an expansionist leader again and has attacked a country on our continent, that we could see as a border of influence. If he goes for Finland or the Baltics we can’t support that easily any more than he likes Ukraine separating.

Yes Hitler miscalculated badly as did Napoleon before him by opening up an Eastern Front. But in the video, I posted up the thread our hero Churchill is all smiles and handshakes doing a deal with Stalin who was arguably worse than Hitler and guaranteed by the Yalta deal an enslaved Eastern Europe for generations.

Realpolitik rather than the world we wish it could inform all geopolitical decisions in the end. The least worse option should be what we aim for and that involves seeking peace in Ukraine with some unpalatable options that will be an anathema to many Ukrainians sadly. We need to tone down the global warmongering - dictator Erdogan (our new bestie) is threatening Greece now ffs and China is not far from a shooting war.

We would have been pretty badly off in WWII without them. With much of Europe under fascism and Japan massacring China, they certainly helped defeat fascism.

If he goes for Finland or the Baltics then NATO kicks in and we are at war plain and simple and you can kiss your pensions, savings and children's mental health goodbye. It's that bleak so everything that can be done towards an imperfect peace should be the priority.

This.

In the end, I think the best option will be a compromise. There are not infinite resources to fight, and meanwhile the planet is becoming uninhabitable for many. That's what matters most of all.

Cakesorwine I don't know what would have happened. Obviously Britain would have fallen. Europe divided by a longer war between Hitler and Stalin.
Maybe the US would have intervened in Europe still.
What do you think would have happened?

I agee completely.

The remarks by the wife of the President of Ukraine does put things into perspective.

I don't suppose people have seen the actual full interview before jumping in with their comments.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001bv00

It's about 20 minutes in.

Very moving - discussing the impact of the war on Ukraine, people, families, lives lost.

Yes. And that’s exactly why Eastern Europe was divided up between the powers at the end of WW2, when Europe had no more resources left and was collectively on its knees. It’s why Erdogan has the power and frustrations he does, sitting on Europe’s frontier.

God help any nation and people caught in between spheres of influence of two powers. It’s one absolute truth of history, particularly when those two go to war. It’s why Ukraine ‘cosied’ up to Europe and NATO in the first place. We are lucky in our geography when Russia turns expansionist, as it does surprisingly consistently across centuries.

She is being interviewed by Laura Kuenssberg for the BBC so of course she is addressing the audience she isn’t going to be addressing the people in Spain.

she is making the point that while we are having it hard life there is terrible many ate they not only facing poverty but the treat of death for many constantly hangs over them and the grief and destruction of their country

ive noticed recently people’s attitudes have shifted the number or articles of home wrecking Ukrainian women 🙄 ffs if it’s not men thanking out jobs it’s the women taking out men

You do realise some of the countries you listed are members of Nato right? We will do more if he goes any further. Sort of the whole point of it!

Early on in the war, Biden let slip they were very happy to take Zelensky and his government out if that's what they wanted. It's almost as if they expected the government to fall and a pro-Russian government to be put in place. It was Zelensky's undoubted bravery and resolve that wrong-footed both the Russians and the US but also had the chilling effect of prolonging the war and suffering.

“From now on I'm thinking only of me."
Major Danby replied indulgently with a superior smile: "But, Yossarian, suppose everyone felt that way."
"Then," said Yossarian, "I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

It was Zelensky's undoubted bravery and resolve that wrong-footed both the Russians and the US but also had the chilling effect of prolonging the war and suffering.

Did it? What would have happened otherwise? Russia would have invaded and set up their puppet state, with their interpretation of history, wiping out the Ukrainian language and independent state. And if we had all sat back and let it happen, what then? Finland gone the same way? Sweden?

What price do we pay for peace?

I have had the uncomfortable thought a few times that as far as the US is concerned, ALL of Europe is sitting in that centre belt between two superior powers. How far are all of us expendable? It was up to the middle of Germany last time. I hadn’t heard that Biden had been happy to wave goodbye to the post cold-war boundaries before.

Will we do more if he attacks NATO countries ?

Im not so sure we can rely on this to feel safe

Yes, we will.
The results will be appalling.
Even Putin knows that,

The only Ukrainian family I know first hand rolls their eyes at Zelensky. If he was fat and dull and had no charisma, this would be a different story.

In the post-WW2 world, the US has been responsible for more war deaths than all other countries combined. But this is what hyperpowers do and a failing US (how can Trump as President. and almost winning a second time be anything but a sign of that) coming up against a rising superpower of China is the battle they want to begin.

The Ukraine sideshow seems to be an unwelcome hiccup in that road to the clash of civilisations and Zelensky and his cohorts are right to be concerned that US and European involvement will only go so far before stalling or seeking some sort of imperfect peace. Indeed pushing Russia into a greater strategic alliance with China and Iran (Israel's obvious key concern) can only aid China's rise even more.

As to what price do we pay for peace - any price in my book as you only live once and there is nothing glorious about being dead. Better to run away than fight is the first rule of self-defence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#20th-century_wars

I do not believe all people in NATO are seen as equals I would like to think they are

is Bulgaria as safe as Norway

many I know from east Europe don’t feel being in NATO keeps them completely safe

we have in recent years not done what we could have knowing terrible acts of cruelty even in Europe

sadly it isn’t just about welfare of people

As to what price do we pay for peace - any price in my book as you only live once and there is nothing glorious about being dead. Better to run away than fight is the first rule of self-defence.

So - since the example was raised - you would have been happy, back at the start of WW2, to watch the Nazis exterminate the Jews and anyone else they didn’t like? Happy to let them have France? Happy, even, to have stood down the few who fought the Battle of Britain and plastered the Swastika everywhere? I am proud that my ancestors did not do that.

The price we’re prepared to pay - or who we are prepared to sell - is the million dollar question.

I agree that the US seems to want this war with China. I only feel sorry for Japan.

I feel sorry for Pakistan and the girls in Afganistan whose lives are not their own.

We pick and choose who we help, and it's not for kindness or morals.

I am a Buddhist pacifist inspired by the life and works of pacifists as the only way to change the world is not by violence leading to violence. As Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

Nice theory. Genuinely, a nice theory. Have you ever had to fight for your life, or at least your health, against an entirely unprovoked attack? Perhaps that’s the difference. I have. I know what I would fight for.