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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask what your next move would be if you were Putin?

313 replies

Chowbellow · 03/09/2022 13:01

So. You're Putin. You rule a massive amount of people. You're ex KGB. You want to take over the world perhaps (or maybe just want to play!).
What is your next move now that the West is in crisis as you won't supply them with oil/gas?
Your people are dying but you've loads of people. You've invaded a non NATO country so you know they won't touch you.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:47

en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

I think is the text of it in full. As I said, I didn't understand the history he referred to so couldn't take it all in.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:51

He's a pathological liar though. He will deny everything and anything. It's hard to know what part of that rant is historical fact and what is reality.

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blueshoes · 04/09/2022 16:52

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:39

Do WE have any respect for him though?

Remind me why I have to respect the head of a kleptocracy and terrorist state?

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:53

There are at least two posters who have commented on this thread who appear to understand or at least know the history.

I don't know much about Russia. You could go as far saying that I know nothing about Russia.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:53

blueshoes · 04/09/2022 16:52

Remind me why I have to respect the head of a kleptocracy and terrorist state?

Respect is possibly the wrong word. Understand perhaps?

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:55

This is a New York times dissection of his speech/rant/manifesto.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:55

Woops. Forgot the link. www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/world/europe/putin-speech-russia-ukraine.html

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PerkingFaintly · 04/09/2022 16:55

Like I said, Putin has to be verrrry careful how he talks about empire to BRICS countries, and indeed many others.

Wouldn't do for them to notice he's arguing in favour of recolonisation by former imperial powers...

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:58

Apologies, the NY times articles is behind a pay wall.

I think that this one, from a Ukrainian paper might work? www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/putins-rambling-manifesto-causes-stir-in-kyiv-and-among-ukraine-observers-worldwide/

More from FT 3 days ago re gas stoppage.

www.ft.com/content/fffc4244-e8e0-48cd-b74a-22098a4d3fce

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:00

Shit, when I go back to the articles they're all behind a damned paywall. You can read them the first time until you click out of them.

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blueshoes · 04/09/2022 17:01

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:53

Respect is possibly the wrong word. Understand perhaps?

Ok, 'understand' is a better word. We definitely 'understand' Putin. It is clear what his motives are. He hisses and blasts it out often enough.

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:02

www.thebulwark.com/putin-announced-his-manifesto-against-the-west-fifteen-years-ago-his-story-hasnt-changed/

In case that goes to paywall, I've copied the text.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:02

blueshoes · 04/09/2022 17:01

Ok, 'understand' is a better word. We definitely 'understand' Putin. It is clear what his motives are. He hisses and blasts it out often enough.

So what are his motives?

OP posts:
Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:04

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RUSSIA
Putin Announced His Manifesto Against the West Fifteen Years Ago. His Story Hasn’t Changed.
Even after a decade and a half of consideration and reassurance, Putin still complains that his interests are being ignored.
by DANIEL FATA
FEBRUARY 7, 2022 5:30 AM
Putin Announced His Manifesto Against the West Fifteen Years Ago. His Story Hasn’t Changed.
(Photo by Adam Berry/Getty Images)
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Fifteen years ago this week, Russian President Vladimir Putin delivered a vitriolic speech at the Munich Security Conference in which he denounced the United States as a hyperbolic superpower, challenged Europe to reexamine security institutions across the continent, and questioned the rationale for expanding NATO. Sound familiar? On the fifteenth anniversary of his manifesto, as the world sits on the precipice of yet another conflict in Ukraine, Putin has dusted off the same talking points and the same demands, announcing last week that once again “fundamental Russian interests were ignored.” And just as the Bush administration did a decade and a half ago, the Biden administration is engaging in a series of talks which, while likely leading nowhere, are validating Putin’s bad behavior and giving him a bigger presence on the world stage than he deserves.

Founded more than fifty years ago, the Munich Security Conference has grown into a major annual event attended by world leaders, American and European defense ministers, parliamentarians from both sides of the Atlantic, journalists, policy experts, and more. The conference was, for decades, the place where U.S. defense secretaries reinforced America’s security commitment to Europe and occasionally chided their counterparts about contributing more to transatlantic security.

But on February 10, 2007, Putin’s litany of grievances disrupted this pattern, transforming the conference into a launch party for a resurgent Russia. The blockbuster tirade led to a series of diplomatic discussions and high-level “strategic framework” meetings that were, while interesting, ultimately fruitless—the same kind of meetings which are being repeated now to address the Ukraine crisis.

U.S. and European policies leading up to the February 2007 conference provided Putin useful material for his rant. In the months preceding the conference, the Bush administration in concert with America’s European allies was pursuing multiple, concurrent policies intended to strengthen transatlantic security. Bulgaria and Romania had agreed to host U.S. forces. NATO was close to extending membership invitations to Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia, having invited seven nations of Central and Eastern Europe to join in 2002. NATO had also made the decision to take over responsibility for the entirety of Afghanistan via the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) mission. As the Alliance began preparations for its April 2008 summit in Bucharest, its members were discussing whether and how to draw Georgia and Ukraine closer. And, the month before the conference, newly minted Secretary of Defense Robert Gates had made the decision to place the “third site” of the nation’s missile defense system on the territory of some of NATO’s newest members in Central and Eastern Europe.

To Putin, these policies provided a way to portray Moscow as the victim of U.S.-led dominion in Europe with scant regard for Russia’s interests. Another Russian leader might have smiled on developments that brought democracy, rule of law, and free markets closer to a Russia struggling with long-term economic stresses, crumbling infrastructure, and declining demographics. Putin saw them are threats to his rule. Instead of seeing NATO’s ISAF mission as an opportunity for cooperation against the common threat of Islamic extremism, Putin portrayed it as NATO destabilizing his “near abroad.”

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No one in the U.S. delegation or the international audience was prepared for what Putin would unload over nearly 45 minutes. The strident Russian president spent the majority of his speech and the following Q&A period railing against the Bush administration, staring down Gates and the U.S. congressional delegation led by Sen. John McCain throughout. He criticized the United States for being arrogant, for its “uncontained hyper use of force,” for having “overstepped its national borders in every way,” and for not adhering to the rule of law. He called America out for its policies on missile defense. He criticized NATO actions in Kosovo.

For the first two-thirds of the speech, which focused on castigating the United States, many of the Europeans in the audience were disturbingly open to Putin’s message. I remember sitting with the rest of the American delegation, seeing agreeable expressions and nods of approval from our European friends and allies.

But the Europeans’ trance broke when Putin redirected his ire toward the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). He claimed the organization was being transformed into a “vulgar instrument designed to promote the foreign policy interests of one or a group of countries,” paying insufficient attention to “relations between the spheres,” and making states “dependent and, as a consequence, politically and economically unstable.” This naked paranoia startled the Europeans. It made them concerned that Putin had bigger ambitions about transforming Europe, and that his rant was not only about President Bush and his policies, but about Europe and the institutions that keep it free and peaceful. The unease was palpable—the Europeans were happy to criticize American leadership, but deeply suspicious of any plan to replace the institutions it supported.

Putin’s remarks and Gates’s response—“one Cold War was quite enough”—led to a yearlong effort known as the “2+2 talks,” with Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and their Russian counterparts trying to define areas of cooperation, such as counterterrorism and nonproliferation, and trying to soothe areas of contention, such as missile defense and military deployments in Europe. Yet despite honest attempts at good relations, the issue of NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia loomed over the discussions as neither side was willing to accept the other’s position.

Putin’s Munich speech was a watershed moment in Russia’s relations with the free world. It made many in Europe aware of the danger Putin represented, but it also created division among them (and among Americans) about how to respond to Moscow. It put the United States in the lead position for engagement with Putin about his concerns and grievances. And it served as the manifesto for the revanchism Putin has pursued ever since. Perhaps the biggest and most lasting effect of Putin’s speech was the reaction it generated from the West, which sought to engage him and reason away his concerns. This helped to legitimate his grievances and his desire to be treated as the leader of a great power.

Since 2007, Putin has remained intent on shaping political and security developments in Russia’s periphery. He wants to be seen as a necessary player on the world stage. He wants Russia to be seen as global power whose approval must be sought. As he said at Munich and many times thereafter, he seeks to reestablish Russian influence in the world.

Successive U.S. administrations and European governments have failed to convince Putin that he could have more influence by playing a constructive, cooperative role than a destructive, antagonistic one. His country’s forces wreaked havoc in Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine since 2014, splintering the territory of both nations and launching disinformation campaigns which have degraded their democratic processes (and those of other democracies as well). Putin and his cronies have paid relatively little compared to what damage they have been able to inflict militarily, psychologically, and diplomatically on millions of people.

With potential violence and devastation an order of magnitude greater than anything Europe has seen since World War II awaiting only Putin’s order, the Biden administration is again engaging in strategic framework talks with Russia, entertaining Moscow’s grievances and revisionist fantasies. Thankfully, United States and Europe have rejected Putin’s proposals, which essentially amount to a do-over of the Cold War. No doubt, talking is better than fighting, but the cost of talking is legitimizing Putin’s quest for dominion over Russia’s neighbors, as if that were the kind of thing about which the United States could or should negotiate.

For the most part, the collective position the transatlantic community has taken has been the right one: There needs to be an unambiguous message to Putin that any hostile actions by Russia against Ukraine will be met with consequences. For this threat to be seen as real and enforceable, NATO, the European Union, and individual European nations must be unified in their willingness to impose penalties on Russia for yet another attempt at disrupting peace and redrawing borders in Europe.

The United States and Europe have an opportunity to learn from past ineffective engagements with Putin and have this round turn out differently. Ideally, American and Europe’s leaders would adopt a stronger position of deterrence regarding Russia’s new offensive in Ukraine so as to make the penalties so severe that they force those around Putin to calculate the cost and benefits.

Putin told the world at Munich fifteen years ago that he has a narrative of how the West wronged his country, and he has used that story to appeal to the Russian people and to satisfy his need for validation, legitimacy, and special treatment. Taking his insecurities and Cold War nostalgia seriously gives him what he wants. By making clear that the consequences of aggressive action in Ukraine will be severe international political, economic, and military isolation would hit Putin where it matters.

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Daniel Fata
Daniel Fata is the former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe and NATO policy under President George W. Bush. He is currently a non-resident senior advisor at the Center for International and Security Studies (CSIS) in Washington, D.C. The views expressed are entirely his own.
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OP posts:
Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:13

I think essentially that some styles of governance want to rule the world. The EU, the US. Union is the common word. United States. European Union.

Putin doesn't seem to like that world order. In his mind, I think, you need someone who understands your history to be a leader. Cooperation is not his MO. The US and the EU and NATO all rely on cooperation. Putin appears to view this with disdain. I think that when you've been a proud people, cooperation is fine, so long as it doesn't weaken your status. I think we've never understood him. Does the US want to rule the world? Yes. Does China? Yes. Does Russia? Yes. Does the EU? No. Does the UK? Yes.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:17

We have to recognise how he views the West, how he views democracy, how he views imperialism etc. etc. British are Imperialist. It's a strange one. If I wasn't facing into a winter of discontent, I would find the psychology fascinating. It's more pressing though.

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Liebig · 04/09/2022 17:22

The EU is the biggest proponent of neoliberalism outside the US. It’s very existence is a “we will rule just as every major economic power has”: thru our markets and economic clout. They have a commanding share of the global order, so this is no different to people saying the USA isn’t an empire as they don’t call themselves such. But they are most assuredly an imperial power to contend with.

The UK simply cannot rule, even if it had plans. The resources required were frittered away as the empire declined, and it’s much easier to takeover territories to service the imperial core when everyone is barely out of agrarian society. Little trickier when the likes of Pakistan have nukes.

As for Putin, I would definitely be focusing on getting the BRICs basket of currencies or single currency system up and running ASAP and nudging such nations towards exports being in such currency. For the Ukraine situation, it’s looking like more attrition is going to happen, so mobilisation may be the political poison pill to swallow now and get done with it.

Going into winter, it will be a better time to press an advantage against the NATO resolve and make sure the civilians appreciate how precarious their lifestyles are without cheap energy.

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:29

I think Winter will change our stance on things as every government will be under severe political pressure from their citizens to at least be able to afford to live.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:32

The UK left the EU. We're not into unions either. Can we really blame him for being the same?

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PerkingFaintly · 04/09/2022 17:33

We've held the shield between two hostile powers—
Old Europe and the barbarous Mongol horde.”

Yes, absolutely. This is a part of the Russian mythos that Putin has tapped into extremely effectively.

He's gained great leverage out of the rise of Islamist violence and playing "your enemy's enemy is your friend". It's been extremely effective for him, particularly marked by his successes with US National Security Advisor Director Mike Flynn (later pardoned by Trump).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Flynn

(The sheer brutality of Putin's war against Chechnya has long been a recruiting point for violent Islamists, of course, but that's too long to go into here.)

Of course the whole narrative involves Putin portraying himself as the bulwark against “those barbaric monsters who torture men, rape women, kill children and take over your country”.

Bit awkward for him to keep up when his forces – official Russian military, Wagner Group, and Kadyrovites – are the barbaric monsters who have tried to take over another country and have horrifically raped, tortured and murdered its citizens, not least in the Bucha atrocities.

Ukraine launches hunt for Russian soldiers accused of Bucha war crimes
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61269480

Bucha killings: Satellite image of bodies site contradicts Russian claims
www.bbc.co.uk/news/60981238

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bucha_massacre&oldid=1108363393

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadyrovites

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:39

I'm under no illusions. He's very definitely a psychopath (I'm now waiting to fall out of my balcony lol). But if we can't understand the cunt, how can we defeat him? How can we cooperate with him? Cooperation doesn't appear to be something he does well. It's the equivalent of trying to manage a defiant toddler. You can put them in the bold corner but if they refuse to apologise, what the fuck do you do then? Toddlers are little psychopaths. Teenagers incidentally 'profile' as psychopaths. Lol. I think we need Supernanny or something.

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Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:45

Cooperation with keeping Putin in time-out might work?

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whumpthereitis · 04/09/2022 17:47

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 16:42

I think his allegiance with China is because 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'.

China hates the West. He doesn't like China I suspect. But they have a common enemy. Us.

In part, but some of it comes down to pragmatism. He needs a back up plan in order to shore up the Russian economy, in light of damaged trade relations with the west. It comes down to not keeping all your eggs in one basket.

From skim reading his rant, I don’t see any glaring historical error. The conclusions he draws are sympathetic to Russian interests, but the history itself seems correct. Ukraine was born from Kievan Rus’, which was destroyed by the Mongol horde. It re-emerged as territory divided and exchanged between Russia, the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, the Austrian and Ottoman Empires. Next came the Cossack Hetmanate, following an uprising against the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth by the Zaporizhian host. The Cossacks historically originated from around the river Don and the Steppe. Poland and Russia fought over the area and it eventually became part of the Russian Empire. It was briefly independent in 1917, but became part of the Soviet Union and one of the founding SSR states. Following the end of WW2 part of Poland was indeed given to the Ukraine, and you see this divide between the western catholic areas, and the Eastern Orthodox ones. Similarly the Crimea, taken and settled by Russia in a war against the Ottomans, was gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev.

^that’s a lot of simplification, but an overview.

There is a lot of of overlap when it comes to the Russian and Ukrainian. A lot of shared history and blood. Putin’s belief is that this means Russia has a right to Ukraine, rather than it having a right to self determination. So while his history seems correct, the issue is the conclusions he draws from it.

Chowbellow · 04/09/2022 17:56

whumpthereitis · 04/09/2022 17:47

In part, but some of it comes down to pragmatism. He needs a back up plan in order to shore up the Russian economy, in light of damaged trade relations with the west. It comes down to not keeping all your eggs in one basket.

From skim reading his rant, I don’t see any glaring historical error. The conclusions he draws are sympathetic to Russian interests, but the history itself seems correct. Ukraine was born from Kievan Rus’, which was destroyed by the Mongol horde. It re-emerged as territory divided and exchanged between Russia, the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, the Austrian and Ottoman Empires. Next came the Cossack Hetmanate, following an uprising against the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth by the Zaporizhian host. The Cossacks historically originated from around the river Don and the Steppe. Poland and Russia fought over the area and it eventually became part of the Russian Empire. It was briefly independent in 1917, but became part of the Soviet Union and one of the founding SSR states. Following the end of WW2 part of Poland was indeed given to the Ukraine, and you see this divide between the western catholic areas, and the Eastern Orthodox ones. Similarly the Crimea, taken and settled by Russia in a war against the Ottomans, was gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev.

^that’s a lot of simplification, but an overview.

There is a lot of of overlap when it comes to the Russian and Ukrainian. A lot of shared history and blood. Putin’s belief is that this means Russia has a right to Ukraine, rather than it having a right to self determination. So while his history seems correct, the issue is the conclusions he draws from it.

Thank you for that interpretation. I suppose it's like the Commonwealth then? If you've conquered a place previously, then it's yours? Mind you I don't think Russia conquered nations all over the world, just neighbouring territiories. Sincere thanks though for fact-checking it.

Hmm. I'm not sure what to think now.
I'm from a nation that the UK conquered and I don't like it so I understand how Ukraine feels pissed off. However, my nation was never part of the indigenous people of the UK if you get me?

Those parts that he talks about, were they 'indigenous' to Russia?

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