To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

There are academics from the global South who are denied visas to attend conferences that they have been invited to!

Where is the global South?

Thats very generic. Which specific technological advancements do you mean?

Some technological advancements have also had long term adverse impacts on the environment. Pollution can be attributed to some technological advancements. So not all is beneficial.

“Why? What prevented them from doing so?”

Some cultures have a greater affinity with nature - that they are content with what they have because it’s they have what they need.

Example: Mediterranean diet much healthier and sustainable than technological advancements of processed foods.

Which specific technological advancements do you mean?

Look around you, You probably wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for what our vilified ancestors did

Some cultures have a greater affinity with nature - that they are content with what they have because it’s they have what they need.

Really? Like drinkable water, electricity, vaccines, and a zillion more. None of that is needed. You are not making any sense now

But we know they’re not British. In the case of the marbles, we know they came from the Parthenon (dedicated to a god; one who Stephen Fry writes about as a god not to be messed with).

Millions still come and visit

Put the shoe on the other foot. If the Kohinoor were to go back to its original site in the Punjab, would millions of Brits still go out to visit it? Would they even care to see the Kohinoor?

Probably not; it doesn’t hold the same cultural heritage for Britain. Other than the diamond being a symbol for “owning India” as a sort of cash cow. Times have moved on. Britain no longer owns India.

No more Emperors or Empresses of India in the royal family.

Still, I can’t get my head around the fact some people think it’s ok that the diamond was taken from a child under duress. Barbaric.

Well we stole all their resources, taxed the population into poverty, occasionally let millions of them die from famine, and conscripted their workforce into our armies.

Kind of hard to build a textile industry in the midst of all that.

If you are legitimately interested (which of course you are not) then read Shashi Tharoor on how British colonialism destroyed indigenous economies and the projections of how they would have developed if colonialism had never happened.

how British colonialism destroyed indigenous economies and the projections of how they would have developed if colonialism had never happened

He has a crystal ball then? If we hadn't intervened, all the inventions all over the world would have instantly happened....Right

Please drop the rethoric and exercise a bit of critical thinking once in a while. It won't hurt, I promise

Still, I can’t get my head around the fact some people think it’s ok that the diamond was taken from a child under duress. Barbaric.

Were you there? Did you see it happen?

You need to be more specific than “look around you”.

Greater Technological advancements date back to the industrial revolution that in the grand scheme of human existence is not actually that long and certainly not sustainable for the planet and environment.

“Really? Like drinkable water, electricity, vaccines, and a zillion more. None of that is needed.”

Somehow the human race has survived for longer than the existence of electricity (recent technological advancements).

Healthy diet is also medicine.

Times of undrinkable water didn’t wipe humans off the face of the planet. Humans are craeativr creatures. They learned to boil water and make other drinks in lieu of drinkable water, such as wine 🍷.

Technological advancements help with speed, sure. But it’s naive to not recognise there are drawbacks too. Such as sustainability.

Have a look at the Elgin marbles in this country, kept in a museum.

Now go and have a look at the rest of them in Athens where they have suffered from air pollution.

Then decide which place is safest for them.

I'm enjoying the posts from @apintortwo :)

She/he is certainly a Truss supporter! Great fun!!

Typically when richer/stronger countries take things, they don't give them. Can't imagine most of us English people give a care what Greece wants, so they'll stay her as long as it suits us.

I understand this is uncomfortable history, but there’s lots of sources to back this up. You’ve clearly not read this history. And it is about knowing your own history too.

For example. There’s a legal document that survives that shows the signatory and surrenderer was a child.

His Queen Mother was separated from child at the time and she wrote letters that survive too. Maybe you should read them?

Both the child and his Queen mother ended up being buried in England, having been exiled from their homeland. The child wanted to go back to his homeland as an adult but Britain wouldn’t allow him.

You can even visit where the child (who grew up and died young at about 55) is buried in a church yard in Suffolk.

I also don’t think this passage would have passed the publisher’s legal read if it wasn’t backed by historical sources:

“Confident in their power over the boy, the British then forced a new legal document on Duleep. According to the Treaty of Lahore, the child was told he must sign over his kingdom and his fortune if he wished his British guardians to save his life from the violence threatening to engulf his palace. And so it was that with no one to counsel him, the Maharajah, aged eleven, signed away his kingdom, his fortune and his family’s future.”

(p.23, “Sophia: Princess, Suffragette, Revolutionary” by Anita Anand, Bloomsbury).

For example. There’s a legal document that survives that shows the signatory and surrenderer was a child

This can all be as fake as the Elgin Marble purchase papers, for all we know. Why have you decided to believe one story and not the other?

Times of undrinkable water didn’t wipe humans off the face of the planet. Humans are craeativr creatures. They learned to boil water and make other drinks in lieu of drinkable water, such as wine

You sound like the type that would bend over backwards to take part in work done by numerous charities that go to the 'Global South' (as some of you call it now apparently) to potabilise water and engage in countless other endeavours. Why do they go there if there is no need?

All the inventions that we (and you) benefit from today are of no value then, because of 'sustainability' 'climate change' 'human creativity' and other stories

With reference to the Koh--i-Noor, Wikipedia reports that,
The governments of India, Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan have all claimed ownership of the Koh-i-Noor and demanded its return ever since India gained independence from the UK in 1947.

So to whom should it be returned?

Let them decide, but one thing for sure is that it does not belong to Britain.

Says the person who's never heard of the Global South, I mean come on

There are literally hundreds of works out there analysing imperial economies and developmental economics but sure, you know best. Crack on.

There seems to be a deep rooted sickness in white/western people when they get to a certain level of comfort..

Self loathing, fawning of foreigners, hatred of all things British.

Denying history that happened because it’s uncomfortable isn’t helpful to you or anything. The truth becomes the first casualty.

That legal document forms the basis of Britain’s continued legal argument for keeping the gem. It’s one of the things that is undisputed about kohinoor history.

It was controversial at the time. Queen Victoria was clearly wary enough to ensure the child was welcomed to her court - and he became one of her favourites. She writes about Duleep Singh fondly on her diaries.

Although Duleep rebelled in later life because of how he’d been treated as a child, Queen Victoria came to the rescue of his children when he died because a few were also her god children (one of whom became a Suffragette alongside Emmeline Pankhurst). Suggests there were some mixed feelings involving a guilty conscience for the Queen (I read somewhere that Victoria admitted that wearing the kohinoor made her feel uneasy or something like that).

I suggest you go away and read some history about this.

“Kohinoor: History of the World’s Most Infamous Diamond” by William Dalrymple.

Might be a starting point. Consider what’s out there and evaluate it before outright denial.

Article for a shorter read: The Koh-i-Noor diamond is in Britain illegally. But it should still stay there

Denying history that happened because it’s uncomfortable isn’t helpful to you or anything

It's not uncomfortable, it's simply not true

Omg.

Ok. What is your version of events?

Please back up with credible evidence.

There seems to be a deep rooted sickness in white/western people when they get to a certain level of comfort

Self loathing, fawning of foreigners, hatred of all things British.

I'm not too sure how this phenomenon happens.

It's a few clueless and gullible people egged on by academics, journalists and activists of various ethnicities and backgrounds who are given a voice and platform and do not have our best interests at heart.

Please back up with credible evidence

Like The Guardian you mean?

Do you mean like in a diabetic coma?

Too much of a good thing can be it’s own curse.