To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

Yeah, no point engaging with people defending colonialism and with a basic ignorance of history.

I am less fussed about the Kohinoor- too complicated to give that back- but there are very many artefacts in the V and A that are less valuable and would be interesting to people in their countries of origin. Shah Jahan's drinking cup, for instance. Or Tipu Sultan's statue. These have great meaning.

Not impossible to at least arrange more loans with museums in Asia and Africa. I hope the return of the Benin artefacts encourages this.

@Digita

You've made an effort to quote stuff, I give you that.

But can you say that your sources are fully impartial? Many of them seem like they have a vested interest in one side of the story, one way or another

activists of various ethnicities and backgrounds

I'm enjoying it all but this is my favourite line so far.

£100 for 6 months? That's a steal! Every country has Visa costs and requirements. Are Greece's Visas really so different for non-European visas than the UK?

Millions and millions of international travellers come to London, to the collection of world famous museums, for FREE entry (how rare is that?) to find world collections incredibly rich in history. And, as English is such a widespread language due to its colonial history, and given how multicultural the city is, are welcomed and are more easily able to get around as tourists and navigate the language, as well as being safe from any kind of persecution for being gay etc. The marbles are as looked after and as accessible to the world's visitors (obviously aside from not being in Greece) than they could ever be and a lot of the arguments here are very simplistic and not understanding museum culture.

No.

I referenced a history Book written by William Dalrymple first.

But no, that doesn’t suit your agenda. So, go for the article that’s in the Guardian. The author’s message would (and has been) the same writing for the Daily Mail, Telegraph, BBC and other outlets.

The history is the history I’m afraid.

Kohinoor was surrendered by a child to the QofE. See the legal document. It is what it is. And it’s truly tragic.

And mind boggling that the kohinoor is showcased on the QM crown as if taking gems from children is a cool thing to do.

Weren't the Marbles bought fair and square?

The average Indian earns less than £120 a month. A steal indeed. And they will be mostly rejected for visas. The ones you see as tourists will be the wealthy top 1%.

Anyway, you carry on believing that international travel is really easy for most of the world. If you actually spoke to people denied visas, they would tell you different. I think 'world's visitors' here means white people.

Kohinoor was surrendered by a child to the QofE. See the legal document. It is what it is. And it’s truly tragic

But you haven't answered my question. Why do you believe the Kohinoor legal document is legit but think the Elgin Marbles purchase documents must be fake

None of us were there. That's the only truth.

You are being blinded by your own bias.

It's really revealing, isn't it? POC, those awful people always trying to cause trouble.

Did you not study history at school? Remember the bit about how to evaluate primary and secondary sources?

The legal document is a primary source. Seen the transcription yes.

Looks dodgy given how readily this Duleep Singh Maharajah is giving away so much without much in return. Then question who the signatories are.

Duleep Singh was the Maharajah aged eleven. (Queen Mother had been ruling on his behalf before she was separated from him and imprisoned. Her imprisonment is well recorded because she somehow escaped to the shock of her British captors - it was so wild and unexpected that her courageous escape was all in the contemporaneous press reports too as they were on the hunt for her.)

How can an eleven year old know what they’re signing in a legal document?

Dig deeper. The British Governor General, Lord Dalhousie, also on the legal document writes about things contemporaneously too.

Your best bet is the William Dalrymple book. He’s a respected historian on this period of history too.

I haven’t seen the Elgin marbles legal document and never said it was fake - because ditto I haven’t seen it.

The kohinoor legal document is a Treaty between nations. So arguably a higher ranking legal document.

No reasonable person is disputing the existence of the kohinoor legal document (signed and dated by verifiable historical people). They are disputing it’s lawfulness. And that’s different.

Major Treaty legal document signed by a child is dodgy. That should be obvious. But isn’t when there was so much to gain from the child…

No, they weren't even bought at all, fair or not! Even Elgin didn't allege he'd paid anything for them, all the money it cost him was just for costs of moving the marbles and bribes to ensure safety.

Some PPs have been quoting purchase documents, the possibly fake document in question is a translation of a missing permission to take 'pieces' of old stone Elgin might find. Even if you take the document as 100% legit I don't see how anyone could imagine deliberately hacking at a wall of stone is the same as finding odd pieces of stone. However you slice it the marbles were stolen, it shouldn't matter whether they've been looked after better here than they would have been there, they weren't for Brits to appropriate.

Ok well take a different approach then. Return the artefacts acquired and make room in museums for British artefacts - Britain has a rich and varied history , some good, some bad, put that on display in the BM. Having Egyptian mummies and dubiously obtained Greek pieces on display does nothing but promote the colonial history of Britain and all the negatives that go with it - the mummies for example are a reminder of that awful Victorian obsession with mummy unwrapping parties etc . That is what these collections now represent when they are viewed in the BM - and to be clear it’s not just the BM or U.K. based institutions. Museums display pieces for the story they tell , the insights we can acquire into how people lived and thought. We assign meaning to these pieces- after all a thousand year old jug is just a piece of pottery until we interpret it. The displays at the BM - and other places of course- are now interpreted through modern eyes. These pieces were appropriated and having them on display in the BM increasingly represents a time when stronger countries could do what they wanted to weaker ones, and justify it on the grounds that they were somehow superior. If a gallery in Berlin displayed a piece of art stolen by the Nazis in 100 years time would you be able to separate the art from the story behind how it came to be in Berlin? After all you could argue that it was kept safe during the war, the original owners are long gone and it is on display to celebrate the artist . Would the painting be valued as a piece of art or would it primarily be viewed as a symbol of a dark time in German history? This is not an anti British view , it’s about ethics

Having Egyptian mummies and dubiously obtained Greek pieces on display does nothing but promote the colonial history of Britain and all the negatives that go with it

You think that there are 'negatives', most reasonable people don't

Most reasonable white people. Maybe ask the colonised how they feel every century or so.

We assign meaning to these pieces- after all a thousand year old jug is just a piece of pottery until we interpret it

How do you know 'your' interpretation is right? Through 'modern eyes'? The level of entitlement of some posters on this thread is shocking

Actually, it’s you and not me being blinded by bias.

I’ve actually read up on this and looked things up.

You’re just making assumptions and denying things that exist. Or, more simply, unwilling to look things up (which is probably worse!).

Here I’ve got the relevant paragraphs from the legal treaty here for you to read with your own eyes.

”I. His Highness the Maharajah Duleep Singh shall resign for himself, his heirs, and his successors all right, title, and claim to the sovereignty of the Punjab, or to any sovereign power whatever.
[…]
”III. The gem called the Koh-i-Noor, which was taken from Shah Sooja-ool-moolk by Maharajah Runjeet Singh, shall be surrendered by the Maharajah of Lahore to the Queen of England.”

This is 1849.
The Maharajah in question here is aged 11 (born 1838).
Queen of England (Victoria) is aged 30 (born in 1819).

11 year old child surrendering to a 30 year old woman.

I do think it’s complicated because Queen Victoria befriended the child when he came to her in England. Child converted to Christianity which pleased her. But he found out what happened to him when he reunited with his Queen Mother in later life and researched himself at the British Library in London.

He didn’t sit around denying it. He went out and investigated in search of truth.

I'm very confused. What claim do India have to the Elgin marbles?

Yep, most definitely and also everything else brits have stole from other countries! There would be nothing left in ‘British’ mueseums then.

Several countries claim that the Koh I Noor belongs to them. Not just India.

For some reason the Elgin Marbles (Greece) and Kohinoor (Punjab, India) get lumped together in repatriation discussions. No idea how or when this started.

Thought it was David Cameron’s doing when he responded to a question about the kohinoor in India by talking about the Elgin marbles.

Eddie O’Hara, chairman of the committee, said that each case must be judged by its merits. “The fact that [David Cameron] conjoined two such widely differing cases as the Koh-i-Noor diamond and the Parthenon Marbles, and the fact that he called the latter the "Elgin" Marbles suggests that he does not appreciate what a simplistic and inadequate concept ‘returnism’ is.”

But I’ve also seen a library book from 1980 about the Kohinoor that also talks about the Elgin marbles. No idea how the two became related.

Do they factor in the frightening kohinoor curse too?

Don't understand why a diamond with a frightening curse is so desirable. Clearly missing something here. Anyone?

It is the same old argument several countries claim Koh I Noor. Let them decide, between India and Pakistan - May be they will take it turns to display it their museums?
May be if all that was looted from India and Pakistan - they may agree to trade / loan items by mutual agreement.
Now , I will wait for someone to tell that these countries are not capable of doing it.

I'm a white person from a country that 'enjoyed' the 'benefits' of colonisation from Britain, under the guise of progress and christianity.

As a reasonable person with a history degree majoring in the history of my country under my belt, I can quite confidently say there were many, many negatives, to the indigenous people.

Not so many to Britain, as a whole, however. Y'know, whales, coal, gold, land, that sorta shit.