To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

Ah!

I still think it needs a thread of its own.

How many people know the Queen Mother’s crown showcases a diamond taken from a child under duress?

I wonder if the Queen Mother knew the history? Hard to believe she didn’t know.

Quite a tragic history. Probably not surprising theres a frightening curse to the Kohinoor.

“The moral of the story here might be: If you want your jewelry to be lucky, don't start out by stealing it.” - mental floss

it would set a precedent for more famous objects like the marbles and the Rosetta Stone (which Egypt does want back as well)

It would be more reasonable to give it back to France. They literally found it being used as a foundation stone in some fort, locals didn’t care about it at all. If the French hadn’t recognised its importance, perhaps we’d still not be able to read hieroglyphs

All the Indians fought in world wars due to loyalty, that's a good thought to hold on to !
They did this while 4 million of their fellow Indians died of bengal famine during the Second World War directly as a result of decisions leading to divert food and resources to Britain's war efforts!

Another false propaganda which has been passed down for years.

From what I remember, 4 million Indians died due to bengal famine and approximately another 1.5 million died during the Indian partition. These are direct result of British empire.

From my memory, 6 million Jews died during World war2.

I wonder if the Queen Mother knew the history? Hard to believe she didn’t know.

Knowing and caring aren't synonyms.

At least Germany can face up to its previous actions and has been an example of how to deal with it. Recognising what the empire did is the first step towards reconciliation.
May be we could first start by teaching colonial history to the children.

From what I remember, 4 million Indians died due to bengal famine and approximately another 1.5 million died during the Indian partition. These are direct result of British empire.

If you can't remember ask anyone from India. Mysteriously they remember it very well. Very, very well. Especially the bit where Churchill refused to allow them to keep some of their own crops.

Vir Das mentions it in one of his excellent stand up shows. Although I suspect some on this thread would prefer Bernard Manning's carefully judged examination of the period ?

May be we could first start by teaching colonial history to the children

Like teaching them 'your truth' you mean?

A lot of technological advancements we (you included) benefit from today are due to Britain, and colonialism has a big role to play in this. Whether you like it or not. No reason to self-flagelate or start giving away objects

No one is saying that museums should only display local culture. Ideally there will continue to be loads of exchanges and loans and tours etc. But it should be for Indians to decide if they want to loan their most important artefacts to Britain, rather than the UK unilaterally deciding that's where they belong.

@SerendipityJane
I did not want to get the figures wrong and could not fact check it before posting. Just did not want someone to point out that I had wrong figures.

But my point is as many Indians lost lives due to world war 2 ( not including those who fought, died and forgotten) as Jews.

Well, the methods could have been different but the intention was the same. We are superior to the others ( insert Jews/ Indians )

True.

But the royal family cared enough about the Kohinoor’s frightening curse to give it to the Queen Mother rather than her husband, the King. Or, even, her daughter the Queen.

How did the frightening curse take root in the royal family?

Did it have something to do with the child it was taken from? Or how it was taken?

Lol at people from all over the world visiting for free. I think most on here with privileged British passports are unaware about the visa procedure for S Asians and people from African nations, and how expensive, long and pointless it is even to get a tourist visa. A standard tourist visa costs £ 100 for only 6 months and requires the following documents:

Bank statements to prove you won't go on benefits and can earn enough for your trip ( if you are a low earner, you will be denied).
Property deed to prove you won't emigrate to the UK ( no property, hard luck!)
Letter from your employer stating that you won't emigrate to the UK ( self- employed? too bad).
Details of your travel history for the past 10 years
Details of your entire family
Visa appointment which currently has a waiting time of over 2 months and counting
Biometric information

Yep, really easy to just swing by and see the Kohinoor.

At present we don't teach them anything about colonial history, forget about whose truth it is!

And this whole argument that it's a good thing Britain looted the Middle East a couple hundred years ago otherwise ISIS would have destroyed everything more recently.

Maybe think about the fact that ISIS would never have been able to seize all that territory if the US and UK hadn't invaded Iraq in the first place. (It's the successor group to Al Qaeda in Iraq, which emerged in the security vacuum following the invasion.)

Or the argument that you can't return artefacts to various peoples of West Africa because the original kingdoms no longer exist -- because the British Empire destroyed them! How convenient.
(This has been the argument for not returning the Benin Bronzes.)

But the resources to afford being able to do a lot of technological advancements came from the colonies.

Lest we forget is about remembering the true sources of success, not just the bits that you want to remember and glorify. There’s a lot of convenient forgetfulness.

Why not embrace the British Empire history, warts and all?

They are also a part of our history. There was a time (not too long ago) when we sent our young men abroad to colonize, murder, rape, convert ... basically take and do whatever we had the power to do if we so wanted.

For what it's worth, given their history and Elgin's lack of permission to remove them (it looks like the docs are fake), I'd be inclinded to return them.

Oh currently plane fares from S Asia to London to see the British Museum are over £1200. So super easy to come and see stuff for the general population.

Honestly.

There is a lot of outrage these days with respect to Russia invasion of Ukraine, of Chinese treatment of Muslim minorities. However, in recent times we did the same, and many times worse.

On the lighter scale of those activities is "taking" stuff that is not ours, and that we really have no reasonable claim to. Many countries did that, not just us.

We might actually have saved those items from destruction? They might go back and be destroyed? Either way, it seems the right thing to do to return them.

You’re forgetting that at least the British Museum entry is free for most exhibitions.

To see the Kohinoor there’s an additional entrance fee to factor in.

I agree with Marina Wheeler’s suggestion that exhibition notes on the diamond’s Punjab origins would be ‘a lot more interesting’.

Seems to add more context to the current notes about how it’s only given to women in the royal family. Why? What would happen if it wasn’t?

Yes, it is but the vast majority of Indians would not be given visas to visit the UK because they don't earn enough. So that's that. There are academics from the global South who are denied visas to attend conferences that they have been invited to!

I wish people would realise that global travel is a privilege that most people do not enjoy.

And I wonder if the I’m alright Jacks, simply don’t care how difficult it would be for Indians to see an Indian diamond (taken from a child under duress).

“I wish people would realise that global travel is a privilege that most people do not enjoy.”

True that. Not sure some Brexit voters truly understood the implications of removing Freedom of Movement within Europe. Next year Europe is introducing a visa waiver system, making it harder than it was before to holiday around in the same continent. For some, it may come as an unpleasant shock and wake up call (making them a bit woke).

Where did you read that he bought them? Where is any evidence of him paying anything at all, to anyone, for the marbles? (To buy them, not to transport them, however much shipping costs it doesn't mean you've bought an item!)

Interesting point.

I suspect being on the winning side helps.

Much easier to paint the losers as the only ‘baddies’.

And paint the winners as the “goodies” that can be distanced from the ‘baddies’.

“At least Germany can face up to its previous actions and has been an example of how to deal with it.”

Do you think that would have been the same outcome had they won?

Facing up the past actions came packaged with defeat. Learn from mistakes.

“Recognising what the empire did is the first step towards reconciliation.”

But if empire was a success, there may not be the same motivating reasons to face up to previous actions. Because those previous actions led to victory and success.

But the resources to afford being able to do a lot of technological advancements came from the colonies

What's your point?

According to your logic, they had the resources if we hadnt' intervened and they could have developed the advancements themselves but didn't. Why? What prevented them from doing so?

Oh currently plane fares from S Asia to London to see the British Museum are over £1200. So super easy to come and see stuff for the general population.

Millions still come and visit

For what it's worth, given their history and Elgin's lack of permission to remove them (it looks like the docs are fake), I'd be inclinded to return them

Nobody can ascertain exactly how any of the items got here as people involved are long dead.

'It looks like the docs are fake'... or they may not be.

It looks like the deeds to your house may be fake, so hand it over to me.

Ridiculous 🙄