To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

“For perspective, $45 trillion is 17 times more than the total annual gross domestic product of the United Kingdom today.” (That was 2018)

Patnaik calculated that Britain drained a total of nearly $45 trillion from India

Utsa Patnaik is an Indian Marxist economist, and her work was published by Columbia University Press

Please OP, scrutinise a bit more what you are reading, and don't take any publication at face value. It's dangerous

No they belong to Great Britain! A lot of stuff in our museums was taken when we were in charge of the nations in question or was purchased. So all legal and perfectly good.

The tourism brings in lots of money too

Huh. I hadn’t noticed that detail about her economic approach. Thanks. Sure, don’t take in face value, but don’t completely dismiss either.

“Ms Patnaik approaches economics from a Marxist viewpoint so she is not likely to see anything positive about capitalism. In the same way, a red meat capitalist will dismiss her work as biased propaganda. As usual, the truth may lie somewhere between the two extremes.” - owlcation.com/humanities/The-Alleged-45-Trillion-Theft

Further on… “William Dalrymple comments that “We still talk about the British conquering India, but that phrase disguises a more sinister reality. It was not the British government that seized India at the end of the 18th century, but a dangerously unregulated private company headquartered in one small office, five windows wide, in London, and managed in India by an unstable sociopath—[Robert] Clive.”

“The EIC broke treaties, cheated traders, stole land, and plundered the country of thousands of priceless artifacts. As Dalrymple notes, “It almost certainly remains the supreme act of corporate violence in world history.””

There are disputes about ‘legal’ and ‘good’. Hence discussion.

Good for tourism income. Possibly. But tourism is also about what Britain has to offer (and there’s a lot without needing things taken from other places).

But as the pandemic showed, the tourism industry is vulnerable. You can’t count on the tourism.

Plus, there are alternatives. Casts can be made. Technology can be used to digitalise them for virtual reality and then return the originals as Stephen Fry suggests greekreporter.com/2022/05/03/stephen-fry-return-parthenon-marbles-greece/

these items might have a special place in Greek memory, but they also have a special place here are a reminder of our (disappearing) role as a major world power.

I think this one wins the thread as in self-explaining the entire issue. (but in fairness apintortwo had some really great contributions too)

The marbles weren't taken at a time we were in charge of Greece and they weren't purchased from anyone who was in charge so how does that mean they belong to us then?

Still waiting for Britain to return countries that it stole - misses the point

Digita. I've been teaching Latin and Classical Studies, in particular the Iliad and the Odyssey for many, many years, have been to "Truva"/Troia/Troy, and most of the important sites mentioned in the works of Homer, read Stephen Fry ad infinitum, and all about Heinrich Schliemann before I was a teenager. Without a doubt, there were many conflicts over the mastery of the Dardanelles/Hellespont, the key to the riches of the Black Sea, and we know about the Bronze Age collapse, significantly at around the supposed time of the war at Troy. All the evidence points to there having been a city, accepted by the ancients as having been Troy, at the site, including the fact that Alexander the Great made a pilgrimage there, as the new Achilles. I wouldn't, however, define The Odyssey as a myth; sure, Ithaca is a real place, there was almost certainly at least one war at the site assumed to be Ilium, So the aetiology, and perfect setting for a tale of Everyman, i.e. Odysseus, and his quest. A fictitious character, albeit an archetype. Remember that it was said that Homer "made his men gods and his gods men." ( Longinus- "de sublimitate commentarius")

That’s fascinating! Thanks for sharing 😊

There’s some archeological work being carried out (like when they thought Troy was a fictional place but then someone went out in search of evidence and found that it’s probably real). They think they’ve found evidence Odysseus was a real person in Ithaca. Home sweet Homer: Archaeologists find 'Odysseus's palace'

Maybe Odysseus is a bit like a King Arthur figure? So, a legend. Why would you say it’s not a myth?

Athena feels relevant to this thread. We’re talking about marbles that were dedicated to her at the Parthenon after all. They’re Athena’s marbles really and that’s why I feel they should go back to her in Athens now they’ve been requested.

I think I see upthread you’re not for returning the marbles to Athens. Surprising given you’re well read on the classics, would you really want to turn down the request of Athens? 😉

For all you know that’s the goddess speaking through the Athenians. In disguise 🥸 and asking nicely like at the start of the story with Arachne…

Perhaps Athena’s mythological. But wisdom is also knowing we don’t know. “I know that I know nothing” - Socrates.

Why doesn't the museum tell the truth ?
Even if Britain does not want to return the artefacts, the least museums can do is to tell how these objects were obtained, if they do then people of this country may change their opinion.

Colonisation is the reason many colonised countries are poor. Colonising powers completely destroyed the infrastructure of these countries - like their way of life ( indigenous people of USA , South America ), these communities still haven't recovered and never will. Most of the disputes in the world today is a direct result of colonialism, so it is still responsible for the loss of livelihood and lives all over the world. You can't put a price on this! West still benefits from this by selling arms and constantly meddling with these countries.
If don't want to believe 45 trillion figure, no problem - just open your eyes and do some research before you visit any state home in this country. Remember 'sugar, cotton and slavery ' whenever you visit these places!

There is a moral obligation to teach this part of the history.

When people say that these objects are bought by the museums, dig deeper and look at who they bought these artefacts from - most of the sellers were thieves, illegal traders.

Before this thread, I had another thread about how society needs people to tell the truth even if it’s at their disadvantage. This rings true with what you say about why museums don’t tell the truth. It’s to their disadvantage. Maybe they don’t want to change people’s opinions because it’s not in their interest to do so.

In a strange way I feel this thread relates to my point that humans sometimes need the idea of gods or a higher force to keep society civilised. Nothing too heavy. Just a nudge raising the possibility of watchful gods who are bored and find humans entertaining sport, but also gods who are mindful of observations to rules of the game of life and a bit invested themselves too. It’s a nice idea and offers more comfort than ‘anything goes just because the powerful can’.

Dishonesty is very useful it seems. Morally wrong. But morals are somewhat unenforceable. Laws and morals are not synonymous. Much of the success of empire is arguably down to not telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Colonisation is the reason many colonised countries are poor. Colonising powers completely destroyed the infrastructure of these countries - like their way of life ( indigenous people of USA , South America)

There are people living in the thick of the Amazon jungle who have never had an encounter with western civilisation or been 'colonised' (and in other places around the world too)

I assume they are happy but they are certainly 'poor' (using your own words), The conditions they are living in are not a result of British colonisation (or Portuguese, or Spanish, for that matter). And I'm not sure it's a way of life you would be keen to adopt.There's nothing idillic about not having access to water, medicine or advancements that we take for granted today (most thanks to our British ancestors).

This also clearly demonstrates why the 'projections' mentioned above along the lines of 'if the British hadn't intervened, inventions would have happened anyway' are wrong.

how society needs people to tell the truth even if it’s at their disadvantage

But what's 'the truth' Digita?

In many cases we simply don't know, as we were not there to witness events. Sometimes new discoveries in science demonstrate that what is widely believed to be 'true' today, may not be 'true' tomorrwow. And so on. It's not that simple

Colonisation destroyed families and societies in America / Africa / India.

Why don't you accept it rather than talking about people living in Amazon - if the colonisers could have reached them , figured out a way to exploit them they would have done it. It does not look like they had any moral compass when they went around pillaging, raping , exploiting people wherever they went.

Not everyone wants to live in the world you live in, people may not have material riches as per the western expectations but they could still be happy and contented in their lives.

In its simplest form, the ‘truth’ is not telling a lie with intent to deceive. It’s as they say in court: the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Integrity to the best of anyone’s ability.

An idealistic expectation of humans (who are, at base level, animals and selfish). But the mark of civilised society is the rule of law and justice. Hence why perjury is such a serious crime and gets punished very hard.

In many cases we simply don't know, as we were not there to witness events.

But there’s recorded history. Artefacts. First hand witness accounts. Press reports from the time. Don’t underestimate bureaucracy - and it’s historical value.

History written by victors, sure. That’s why skilled historians don’t take the victors version of events at face value. They work hard to piece together what really happened evaluating primary, secondary sources and evidence that’s available. Reading between the lines (where evidence wasn’t recorded or was destroyed etc.) with a critical eye like a detective.

As an aside, this is also why stories about the gods are useful in keeping humans on their toes a bit to behave. We might not be witness to all events but how do you know immortal gods aren’t witness?

Loads of examples in classical literature of gods being witness to wrongdoing and not forgetting. Ancient Greek proverbial expression: “The millstones of the gods grind late, but they grind fine." Gods were thought to take their time (because they have time on their side, being immortal) and wait until they had their ducks in order until they delivered justice.

Plutarch argued, "Thus, I do not see what use there is in those mills of the gods said to grind so late as to render punishment hard to be recognized, and to make wickedness fearless." But better late than never…

The truth is that nearly 4 million Indians died due to bengal famine. Direct result of British policy of diverting food and resources away from India to war efforts , mismanagement, corruption, greed and dis regard to Indian lives.

Do you ask for truth about holocaust as well ?

Being generally sceptical, and taking note of who is spouting each 'truth' and their likely motives is a good thing.

Why don't you accept it rather than talking about people living in Amazon

You brought up the issue about 'indigenous people living in South America', not me

It does not look like they had any moral compass when they went around pillaging, raping , exploiting people wherever they went.

So everyone in the world is saintly and has an inherent 'moral compass' that they invariably follow except the British? Pillaging, exploiting, etc unfortunately occurs in most societies (in the past and today).

@ProfessorLayton1

Btw. Were you aware that Gurinder Chadha (Bend it Like Beckham) released a documentary on Channel 4 recently? Called “Queen Victoria and the British Maharajah”. On the C4 app for another 4 days.

Different take on the kohinoor history. It’s about the last heir apparent, Victor Duleep Singh. And about finding her British Indian identity - it was educational because not many people are aware that Indian royalty lived and mingled in Britain before the world wars. ‘People get defensive about the British Empire but it’s our shared history’.

@apintortwo ”So everyone in the world is saintly and has an inherent 'moral compass' that they invariably follow except the British? Pillaging, exploiting, etc unfortunately occurs in most societies (in the past and today).”

Britain prides itself on being civilised and having respect for the rule of law, rather than being lawless savages. Leading by example etc.

The Queen’s Head of the Church as well as the state. So suggests a Christian moral compass is part of the traditional and historic British identity.

Harder to credibly preach the rule of law and claim to be civilised when it’s “do as I say not as I do”.

Exploiting natural resources of other areas/peoples is a key factor in growth of empires. We benefited hugely from it, as did other empires.

Most English people don't care/think about implications on the other side. It's human nature, but also part of the education system. Look at how WW2 is represented in Japan? Or the "special operation" in Ukraine will be taught in Russia. We're just another empire (in rapid decline, relatively speaking). A lot of people still look back fondly to those days (the good parts only).

I work in the tech sector, and even today we benefit hugely from the legacy. Colleges in ex-colonies of India, Pakistan, Ireland, Australia (to an extent) produce very very high quality graduates in science and engineering fields and come and work here in UK. For 25+ years of I've had the pleasure of working with them. Our UK system has fallen behind in a big way in these fields, we're left in the dust.

Will watch it, thanks

MN is so full of antiquated fossils these days. In real life I don't meet anyone who is still nostalgic for Blighty or who would presume to tell colonial subjects that colonialism was great for them. Next step: tell black people that slavery was wonderful for them; they are just too stupid to realise it.