To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

[Digita]

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

Plenty of people in the U.K. feel as I do

Dig into the backgrounds of those who hold these views. I don't rate these opinions as they don't come from a good place. See some of the 'thinkers' the OP has quoted, you really cannot take them seriously.

I think @buzzbuzzybuzz has summed up the whole thing rather well.

The way Elgin nicked them - bribing guards and exaggerating a very vague note from
the Ottoman sultan - was dodgy.

The people who are attached to keeping objects like this tend to be the sort of people who look at the British Empire with fondness and nostalgia. I’d rather see Britain grow in power and influence now. Most of Europe thinks we suck, since Brexit. Why not make a few generous gestures of friendship to our allies? Our political alliances all around the globe are the weakest they’ve been in my lifetime, by far. The world is also the closest to widespread war it’s been since WW2. We need to do some ‘soft diplomacy’ and be nicer to our allies while they’re still interested. Improve the British brand, frankly.

( Fascinating discussion re how Elgin got the marbles here…
www.artnews.com/art-news/news/parthenon-marbles-british-museum-restitution-1234605904/amp/

I'd return the lot. Elgin Marbles and Koh i Nor diamond. No skin off my nose.

@ProfessorLayton1 ”If it was a treaty between the heads of state then it should have been with the Queen mother and the British.”

@apintortwo The problem with that legal Treaty is the fact the boy’s Queen Mother isn’t on there at all.

The boy had a living parent, she was acting on his behalf because he was too young. The Queen Mother references her son’s young age and immaturity in her contemporaneous letters. Read them. She asks God for help.

Have you heard of ‘God saves the Queen’? She escaped being imprisoned in a high security jail. No one knows how. The British Governor General, Lord Dalhousie, was very annoyed that she escaped somehow. There was a hunt for her. But she somehow made her way to a sanctuary in Nepal.

Waited it out 13 years. Her son wanted to see her again. It was only in thinking she was no longer a formidable force, because of weakened health that reunion was permitted. And it made a difference to the trajectory of events because, although physically older and weaker, the Queen Mother was still spirited and told her son about the kingdom that was supposed to be his.

She died in London having sowed the seeds of rebellion.

I’m not sure if it was wise that Duleep Singh rebelled. Knowledge of the truth didn’t make him happy. If you were contemporaneous to Duleep Singh you would likely have berated and disliked him without recognising that British Empire wealth was coming from the profits of a kingdom he signed away as a child.

Duleep had a hard time and his attempt to regain his kingdom was doomed. But no one can claim he didn’t try - the effort was there to show he wasn’t standing by the legal Treaty he signed as a child without his Queen Mother. Not surprising there’s a frightening curse on the kohinoor.

I’d take a thinker over a thoughtless barbarian tbh.

Thinking suggests a moral compass somewhere.

Rightly said, Look at the influence Britain has on India - none, evidenced by India's refusal to condemn Russia. BJ visit to India had lukewarm reception, contrary to what the newspapers here and bbc lead you to believe.

Look at the reception Royals got in the Caribbean.

These countries all have their first post independence generation in power - their views are different and they lack nostalgia their parents had. Britain needs to wake up and build alliances for future, treating these countries fairly and equally.

Dig into the backgrounds of those who hold these views. I don't rate these opinions as they don't come from a good place.

What the actual?

How do you know what 'place' all the people who think this are coming from?

You’re assuming there are no gods watching the games play out.

In another thread the Trojan war was referenced. Some gods on one side and other gods on the other side. As if bored gods use human squabbles as a sort of entertainment or sport. But like with all sports there are certain rules that the audience expects players to follow.

The Odyssey happened because Athena was unhappy with how her side, the Greeks, won victory without honour in Troy, adding 10 years to her favourite’s journey home.

The idea of Watchful gods is a useful one imo. Admittedly, takes a bit of imagination to factor in too.

We need to do some ‘soft diplomacy’ and be nicer to our allies

Like...be kind?

“Britain needs to wake up and build alliances for future, treating these countries fairly and equally.”

@apintortwo This.

Britain is on its own. No more empire, the Sun has set. No more European Union thanks to the choice to leave.

Building diplomatic bridges involves addressing the British Empire warts and all to better understand other countries to broker deals with.

You are romanticising this too much @Digita

Also making assumptions of 'what would have happenned if'. Nobody knows, it is what it is

Being kind - and trusted.

In the case of the kohinoor’s kingdom, Britain came in first as friends of Duleep Singh. His Queen Mother saw they were taking the kingdom by stealth but no one believed her (they thought the Brits were just being ‘kind’).

Kindness is harder to be trusted when there’s a history of taking land/riches by stealth or whatever. So acknowledging wrongdoing and saying sorry goes a long long long way.

For starters, it shows understanding and some humility.

That’s what the Trojans said about a wooden horse presenting as a victory prize. It is what it is. Let’s bring it into the city. What could go wrong?

They told Cassandra she was ridiculous for having the insight there were Greeks hiding inside the wooden horse.

Any dumb person can say ‘that is a wooden horse it is what it is. Nothing more beyond this’.

Takes a bit more imaginative intelligence (a quality Einstein promoted) to see that all might not be as it seems.

@Stepinside ”These items might have a special place in Greek memory, but they also have a special place here are a reminder of our (disappearing) role as a major world power.”

I think I understand what you mean. Like showing off? “Look what we did. We took things that held a special place to them. We have their special things. And we’re still so powerful because they’re asking for their return but no one can force us to give them back. Ha! We win.” Bit childish but I think I get it appeals to a base level instinct of dominance.

Maybe countries asking for the return of items plays into the hands giving power too - because Britain is in the position with the power to say “no not giving back.” And can use any reason.

But it makes me think of two classic proverbs. “Pride Cometh Before the Fall” and “Oh how the mighty do fall”. Tread cautiously.

@Apl said it best, “Our political alliances all around the globe are the weakest they’ve been in my lifetime, by far. The world is also the closest to widespread war it’s been since WW2. We need to do some ‘soft diplomacy’ and be nicer to our allies while they’re still interested. Improve the British brand, frankly.”

Quite frankly, reading that scared me a bit. It’s not hyperbole anymore to suggest another world (widespread) war is on the horizon. The past few years have been weird.

That’s why making amends has so much value.
Like the moral in that Aesop’s fable about a lion and a mouse - you never know who you might need in times of need.

Ermm...you do know, don't you, Digita, that the Odyssey is a work of fiction? Why bring Athena in on a modern conundrum? (And you haven't mentioned the role of Poseidon in Odyssey's homeward journey...as usual, the sheila gets the blame)

Quite frankly, reading that scared me a bit

You will be more scared of what will happen if we are perceived as weak or easily swayed because we pander to the whims of bullies

dom’t be daft OP

Yanbu. No one is talking about returning the entire contents of the BM to whence it came. The Greek government is asking for these specific items back and have built a suitable facility to keep / display them. They should be returned.

I agree with you, but would temper this with the need to show strength.

Putin, Bolsanaro and Xi are looking at western democracies for signs of weakness. Higher plain thinking is western thinking so won’t carry any weight there.

I’d say both the Iliad and Odyssey were under the genre of ‘legend’ rather than wholly ‘fiction’; a mixture of history and mythology to add some sparkle. Stephen Fry explores the theme of how the gods were added after the event quite well at the end of his trilogy ‘Troy’.

Did the Trojan War actually happen?

“Homer’s genius was to elevate universal conflict into something more profound so as to highlight the realities of warfare. There would have been no gods influencing the course of action on a Bronze Age battlefield, but men who found themselves overwhelmed in a bloody fray could well have imagined there were, as the tide turned against them. Homer captured timeless truths in even the most fantastical moments of the poem.“

They can’t ascertain for certainty who Homer was.

There’s evidence the Trojan war may have happened and a site exists in modern day Turkey. And Ithaca is a real place.

Why bring Athena in on a modern conundrum?

She’s pertinent to the topic of the marbles because they were dedicated to her in the Parthenon in Athens, not to Lord Elgin.

I was adding some magical sparkle to discussion! ✨

Bullies threaten. What exactly are you claiming Athens are threatening with?

Asking for the return of marbles taken from the city (dedicated to their historical deity, Athena) during hard times is not bullying.

I understand you’ve got to tread a fine line in being ‘kind’ (and trusted) with not being a pushover. But the reasonable test needs to be applied.

If war was to erupt then trust and likability also factors in.

India are an important superpower to keep on side - but they are also a former colony and there’s baggage there. Foolish to pretend India don’t feel hard done by. Last economic assessment was that British Empire stole $45 Trillion. Easier to return kohinoor than $45 Trillion.

If war was to erupt then trust and likability also factors in

We cannot control our own likeability levels, even if we tried

How much we are 'liked' is heavily influenced nowadays by the mainstream media (lots of them pushing anti-British sentiment) and social media (owned by American powerhouses). Both pursue their own particular political and economic agendas.

British Empire stole $45 Trillion

Says who?

That’s fatalism. Take back control of self-image.

Imagine if Britain return the Parthenon marbles saying ‘it’s the right thing to do’.

It would be admirable - especially by the Greeks (and the EU they’re part of, which would help heal some Brexit wounds).

Then imagine if the royal family atoned for the kohinoor because ‘it’s the right thing to do’.

Moral high ground counts for something.

It would shift the balance and take matters out of mainstream media hands.

“Drawing on nearly two centuries of detailed data on tax and trade, Patnaik calculated that Britain drained a total of nearly $45 trillion from India during the period 1765 to 1938. It's a staggering sum.“

Read more: www.cadtm.org/spip.php?page=imprimer&id_article=16972

Number crunching quants like that matter to India just as it would to any other nation if that happened to them.