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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s reasonable to return the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

359 replies

Digita · 02/09/2022 01:47

Learned I have to start a new thread rather than resurrect an existing one if I want to discuss this. Original zombie thread (learned new term!) FYI: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/776736-to-think-it-outrageous-that-Britain-refuses-to-give-back

Old thread still relevant imo because 13 years later and the Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have still not been returned to Athens. Still a topic that reoccurs in the news cycle. Most recent article was within last month.

Athens asked for marbles back nicely and waited patiently. Even through Brexit negotiations, apparently.

I think it’s reasonable to return the Parthenon marbles. Athens have asked for them and also shown they are capable of taking care of their own heritage too. Doesn’t seem fair to require Athenians to get flights to London if they want to see the Parthenon marbles that were dedicated to their city’s patron deity.

Even if the claims that Elgin ‘bought’ them from the occupying Ottomans are true, it could be counter-argued that the marbles are priceless and shouldn’t have had a material value on them. In fact, who decided the price? Doesn’t sound like the Greeks had a say at the time…

OP posts:
Digita · 03/09/2022 09:45

@StepinsideExploiting natural resources of other areas/peoples is a key factor in growth of empires. We benefited hugely from it, as did other empires.

Unwise long term strategy. It’s the same area: the earth.

Did you see who was named ‘Greatest Leader of All Times’ in BBC World Histories? Unfamiliar name beat the likes of Churchill seemingly on the merit of how he approached empire building.

Historian Mark Lockwood wrote: “Though certainly an imperialist, Ranjit Singh represented a different, more enlightened, more inclusive model of state-building, and a much-needed path towards unity and toleration. We could still benefit from his example.”

Matt Elton: “And, at a time of global political tensions, it’s telling that Singh’s rule is interpreted as representing ideals of tolerance, freedom and cooperation.”

We're just another empire (in rapid decline, relatively speaking). A lot of people still look back fondly to those days (the good parts only).

The reluctance to confront the ‘bad parts’ of British Empire is also poor strategy. We need not be in decline if we Learn from the past in order to prepare for the future.

To quote Sun Tzu: “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” (‘The Art of War’).

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Digita · 03/09/2022 10:09

apintortwo · 03/09/2022 08:19

Being generally sceptical, and taking note of who is spouting each 'truth' and their likely motives is a good thing.

Do you find knowing a person’s method or sources helpful?

That way you can assess for yourself.

Books written by credible historians are a good bet because they’re footnoted with detailed bibliography so you can go away and look up the sources yourself. Make up your own mind.

I do think these things are about dialogue and conversation with a view to understanding. I’m keen on fairness and balance, so I try to see the different sides.

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Zumatalaa · 03/09/2022 10:51

TheKeatingFive · 02/09/2022 19:06

"The Department of Greece and Rome has one of the largest and most representative collections of ancient Mediterranean artefacts in the world."

It's absolutely no credit to them when they would be presented so much better elsewhere as is the case with the marbles. Quite the opposite.

The Greek's case is strong, I have faith they'll be returned in time. And I'll be back to Athens to see them in their true glory.

I do hope so @TheKeatingFive How wonderful that would be!

Charley50 · 03/09/2022 10:58

This has been such an interesting thread, and loving the introduction of Greek mythology into it.

I think that the Marbles should be returned, on a very long 'loan' if that's needed, as a PP suggested.

I've often wondered how the world would be now if instead of colonising, European countries had worked in alliance with those countries, in a mutually beneficial way, not exploitative.

Tabbouleh · 03/09/2022 11:01

There is apparently a fantastic new museum in Egypt for Egyptian antiquities.

Digita · 03/09/2022 11:14

Charley50 · 03/09/2022 10:58

This has been such an interesting thread, and loving the introduction of Greek mythology into it.

I think that the Marbles should be returned, on a very long 'loan' if that's needed, as a PP suggested.

I've often wondered how the world would be now if instead of colonising, European countries had worked in alliance with those countries, in a mutually beneficial way, not exploitative.

Tbh I’m always surprised that people miss the point that these Parthenon marbles were dedicated to Athens’ patron deity, Athena, who’s also a well established goddess in some very very important domains (wisdom, justice, just war etc.).

With a bit of imagination it’s not hard to envision Athena watching on in disbelief for some time, “who on earth is Lord Elgin? Since when was he a god?! Athena’s Parthenon marbles thank you very much. If you’re not calling them by their proper name then I want the marbles dedicated to me returned to my city.”

Some pp pointed out that Parthenon marbles and other Greek artefacts are in other museums around the world. The distinction could be the naming and appropriation is offensive… not sure the other museums call them by the looter’s name, probably the original which is enough and more respectful.

The inappropriate and inaccurate naming is maybe what distinguishes the Elgin Athena’s Parthenon Marbles.

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Fimofriend · 03/09/2022 11:24

Of course, they should be returned.

Hilarious that so many posters seem to think that it is a good argument against returning them that if British Museum returns everything that was stolen they wouldn't have anything left. So if you just steal enough stuff you should be allowed to keep it? Nonsense!

Other museums in Europe and North America have started returning stolen items because it is the right thing to do.

BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 11:30

I've often wondered how the world would be now if instead of colonising, European countries had worked in alliance with those countries, in a mutually beneficial way, not exploitative

Considering it was never really done in history, or indeed even done now, that’s quite a ridiculous thing to suggest. Even something like Capitalism, which is the closest thing to that, is totally demonised

Fimofriend · 03/09/2022 11:35

@apintortwo Wait? What? Are you saying that if British Museum returns the Parthenon Marbles to their rightful owners they are pandering to bullies? So if we report to the police that someone stole something from us and we want it back, we are bullies?

That is some mental gymnastics you are doing there.

Zumatalaa · 03/09/2022 11:36

The inappropriate and inaccurate naming is maybe what distinguishes the Elgin Athena’s Parthenon Marbles

Very much part of it @Digita I can't bear the title they are almost always referred to as.

Digita · 03/09/2022 11:45

@FimofriendHilarious that so many posters seem to think that it is a good argument against returning them that if British Museum returns everything that was stolen they wouldn't have anything left. So if you just steal enough stuff you should be allowed to keep it? Nonsense!

David Cameron made the same argument when he was PM.

Boris is a Classics man. I wonder what he truly thinks.

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Saz12 · 03/09/2022 11:53

To me it is staringly obvious that the marbles are not ours and therefore should be returned. It’s embarrassing that we have not returned them already.

Our taking of the kohinoor & ruling of the Punjab were hugely unethical. It shouldn’t have happened. But for 500 years the kohinoor was fought over and passed between empires. We were in a long line of empires that took it then fell. I imagine that there are plenty incidences of unethical behaviour in how it was taken. I don’t know who we should return it to - the area that owned it before we took it, or the area it was discovered, or what? I’m not saying we have any right to it. But I’m not sure who really does anymore.

BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 12:00

Besides, it was just over a 100 years ago from Elgin’s time that a war destroyed the roof of the Parthenon as the Turks were using it as a fort and the Italians (well Venetians) were attacking it.

Nobody cared about it. The Greeks first carved it up after people mass converted to Christianity, Ottomans didn’t care they used it as military fort, tbh only north Europeans cared about classical heritage at the time and their methods were pretty crude. This back projection is just so tiresome, let’s not pretend the Greeks cared about the Parthenon.

Let the British keep it, even though Elgin originally wanted it for his private collection, lol. I’m tired of people assuming the locals at that time cared about their heritage, they really really didn’t (or not aware of it at all) and let this stuff go cheaply.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2022 12:07

So theft can be justified on the grounds of 'you aren't treating it right'? I'd love to see how people would react if others applied these qualitative standards to their property.

The degree to which individual Greeks cared about the marbles and had the ability to protect them is impossible to ascertain and it doesn't make looting ok.

Digita · 03/09/2022 12:07

Saz12 · 03/09/2022 11:53

To me it is staringly obvious that the marbles are not ours and therefore should be returned. It’s embarrassing that we have not returned them already.

Our taking of the kohinoor & ruling of the Punjab were hugely unethical. It shouldn’t have happened. But for 500 years the kohinoor was fought over and passed between empires. We were in a long line of empires that took it then fell. I imagine that there are plenty incidences of unethical behaviour in how it was taken. I don’t know who we should return it to - the area that owned it before we took it, or the area it was discovered, or what? I’m not saying we have any right to it. But I’m not sure who really does anymore.

Maybe it’ll sort itself out. Like the Lord of the Rings ring, Kohinoor is a diamond carrying a frightening curse apparently. Perhaps not the Kohinoor we need to worry about- it’s everyone and everything else! Diamonds are survivors after all…

William Dalrymple argues that it was Duleep Singh’s father, Ranjit Singh, who treasured the kohinoor to the point it became a symbol of his kingdom’s sovereignty. Before then, I’m not sure it enjoyed the same level of sanctity and reverence.

Sounds like British India admired and envied Ranjit Singh’s kingdom. To take the kohinoor gem was to take the symbol and claim takeover the kingdom.

Sounds like they came hand in hand.

OP posts:
Charley50 · 03/09/2022 12:12

BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 11:30

I've often wondered how the world would be now if instead of colonising, European countries had worked in alliance with those countries, in a mutually beneficial way, not exploitative

Considering it was never really done in history, or indeed even done now, that’s quite a ridiculous thing to suggest. Even something like Capitalism, which is the closest thing to that, is totally demonised

I wasn't 'suggesting' it, I said I wonder about it. To be fair I don't get far with my wondering as it is fairly hard to imagine humans being cooperative and 'kind' at a government/ big corporation level. It would take a hell of a lot of foresight for a colonist(?) back in the day to think 'hang on, if we rape and exploit these countries now, and create global inequality, what is the practical impact going to be in a few hundred years time? For all of us?'

Digita · 03/09/2022 12:24

BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 12:00

Besides, it was just over a 100 years ago from Elgin’s time that a war destroyed the roof of the Parthenon as the Turks were using it as a fort and the Italians (well Venetians) were attacking it.

Nobody cared about it. The Greeks first carved it up after people mass converted to Christianity, Ottomans didn’t care they used it as military fort, tbh only north Europeans cared about classical heritage at the time and their methods were pretty crude. This back projection is just so tiresome, let’s not pretend the Greeks cared about the Parthenon.

Let the British keep it, even though Elgin originally wanted it for his private collection, lol. I’m tired of people assuming the locals at that time cared about their heritage, they really really didn’t (or not aware of it at all) and let this stuff go cheaply.

As upthread, I wonder if those Parthenon marbles in particular may have caught the attention of the Goddess they was dedicated to, Athena (ancient patron deity of Athens) because of how they’ve been renamed.

Athena’s the most reasonable of the gods. She can probably get her head around most the arguments and maybe even agree the locals didn’t care anymore.

But to call the Parthenon Marbles dedicated to Athena the “Elgin Marbles” is sacrilegious and offensive. It’s taking something away (in name, but also identity) from an ancient goddess and appropriating it to a mortal man… In the naming and identity, Elgin took over Athena’s Parthenon Marbles.

Had the naming and reputation been left as Athena’s Parthenon Marbles she might not have an issue with it so much.

With a bit of imagination it’s not hard to envision Athena watching on in disbelief for some time, “who on earth is Lord Elgin? Since when was he a god?! Athena’s Parthenon marbles thank you very much. If you’re not calling them by their proper name then I want the marbles dedicated to me returned to my city.”

OP posts:
BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 13:15

But to call the Parthenon Marbles dedicated to Athena the “Elgin Marbles” is sacrilegious and offensive. It’s taking something away (in name, but also identity) from an ancient goddess and appropriating it to a mortal man… In the naming and identity, Elgin took over Athena’s Parthenon Marbles

Complete nonsense. The Greeks removed the beautiful statue of Athena once they converted to Christianity and turned it into a church (lmao) and then it became a mosque before being used as a military fort. Athena was turfed out long ago.

BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 13:27

So theft can be justified on the grounds of 'you aren't treating it right'? I'd love to see how people would react if others applied these qualitative standards to their property

He apparently had permission from the military garrison attached to it. It’s not a clear case of theft. If the locals (or the ruling bodies) didn’t value these pieces, and let Elgin have it for cheap, well that’s on them.

There was a recent video of Pakistani miners smashing up ancient Buddhist statues they found at the site, I think theft would be a fine idea in that case.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2022 13:30

He apparently had permission from the military garrison attached to it.

He said he had permission from the Sultan, which wasn't ever properly evidenced and wasn't the Sultan's to give. It was theft. Dressed up, colonial theft, but theft none the less.

Andante57 · 03/09/2022 13:35

Kohinoor is a diamond carrying a frightening curse apparently

Do you believe in curses, op?

BananaSpeel · 03/09/2022 13:38

wasn't the Sultan's to give

It was Ottoman territory and had been for a long time. Anyway Greece had been ruled from Constantinople/Istanbul since Byzantine times so I don’t really see the Turks as colonisers here. They were the proper authorities.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2022 13:39

I don’t really see the Turks as colonisers here.

That doesn't mean you are right. It wasn't
the Turks heritage he was giving away here.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2022 13:42

The British colonised Ireland for hundreds of years. That doesn't mean I would consider ancient Celtic artefacts theirs to give away either. Hypothetical example to support my point.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2022 13:44

Also there isn't sufficient evidence that he was granted permission from the Sultan.