Fucking hate this term

[MolliciousIntent]

Conversation today with an acquaintance, who is a SAHP, has oddly kinda upset me. I've just gone back to work after 6m mat leave and mentioned that I'll be going into London for work now and then - she said "oh it's been ages since I went to London, but then again I am a full time mum."

I'm probably just tired and stressed, but it felt like a bit of a guy punch. I'm a full time mum too. I just work as well. I've seen SAHMs described as full time mums before, now I think about it, and it makes me feel weird.

Do people really think working mums are part time parents? Or was she just having a dig?

@FaptainClubby I don’t think any parent is better than another. I’ve already posted before that all parents are full time.
Im just pointing out to those that claim that to be a full time parent you have to not work is illogical given that part of the parenting role is to provide for your child.

@mnmoaner

I'm aware there's very little can be done (unfortunately) to change sexist attitudes.

They're too ingrained.

Acknowledging all the societal influences that result in these attitudes isn't mysoginist.

Although that does seem to be the go to insult for those who can't argue a point.

Oh, if you disagree with any (obviously sexist choice) any woman makes you're a mysoginist!!

🙄

I think you are really missing the point here.
Lets stop being so entrenched and consider what would happen in a society where it was normal for both parents to care for children.
It would be better for everyone.
The vast majority of women like their own children, WOH doesnt mean women never see their children or care for them.
If both parents cared for small children it would be fairer, less presenteeism, more flexibity and there would be less DV and abuse due to the power imbalance some SAHP experience.
I love when comfortable SAHM only see things from their own lens and so push their own agenda.
DV, child and older female poverty are rife in the UK.
There is a massive issue here and "Im fine so stop talking about it" doesnt cut it Im afraid.

They just mean they are not WITH the children full time Hobbitfeet. This has been gone through now - over and over and over.

Yet you perpetuate them.

I didn't talk about men's roles because this thread isn't about men's roles? I considered talking about sahps because I believe men should have the same choice to be one. I know men who would like to be a sahp but society creates bigger barriers to that than the stay at home mother.

Absent male influence? I'm not sure how you know my attitude towards that because I wasn't talking about that?

Society expects child rearing to be tucked in behind working. But the reality is many women are having their children looked after outside the family so they can work in minimum wage, low skilled roles with little opportunity for progress. And then they get judged for it (Because every mother gets judged for everything!). Working life needs to allow people to take breaks (for having a family and other things) and offer support and training when they return to work. In the main, this does not happen.

"This thread isnt about mens roles"
And there we have it!

Yup

@mnmoaner

And yet no one can answer why that matters or at what crucial hour it starts to make a difference

Calling a SAHM unemployed isn't shitty - it's factual as... they're not employed!

Loads of people who are not employed are not classed as unemployed; children, students, the so rich they don’t have to work, those on maternity leave, SAHMs, the elderly. Unemployed has a specific meaning which is signing on and available for work. You have to fulfil these criteria to be unemployed. I’m surprised you don’t know that.

Society expects child rearing to be tucked in behind working. But the reality is many women are having their children looked after outside the family so they can work in minimum wage, low skilled roles with little opportunity for progress. And then they get judged for it (Because every mother gets judged for everything!). Working life needs to allow people to take breaks (for having a family and other things) and offer support and training when they return to work. In the main, this does not happen.

Agree!
But why doesnt it happen?
What would happen if both parents considered CC their responsibility?
All your language surrounds women being the default parent.
Im coming from a place where I WOH and cared for my DC, zero CC because my DH did the same.

Sisisisi - I totally agree that there should be structures to help women go to work who want / need to. I'm not disagreeing with you there.

It's another matter though when women are being told what they SHOULD want.

Ultimately , you can put in all the structures you want. Some women will still prefer, if given the choice, to stay with their own children in the early years.

You could have said to me - "here is a £300k job for a 30 hour week and free amazing childcare while you do it." I still would have wanted to be a SAHM. This is how I felt and there's nothing I can do about that. Nor should I need to doubt myself. I know I am far from the only woman to feel that way.

You could have said to me - "here is a £300k job for a 30 hour week and free amazing childcare while you do it." I still would have wanted to be a SAHM. This is how I felt and there's nothing I can do about that. Nor should I need to doubt myself. I know I am far from the only woman to feel that way.

And this should be understood and respected, but apparently you are destroying womens rights according to some female posters here. But it’s a woman’s right to choose, as it should be a man’s right to choose if he wanted to.
thise arguing that men don’t do the same, it’s often because women don’t earn the same salaries as men, so it’s not financially practical. The problem is with misogyny in general, not mothers who want to raise their children whilst not working.

@mnmoaner

No one has said women should do anything.

If you want to be a sahm, be one

The choice has societal impacts and is influenced by cultural and societal ideals.

You dont have to care or even agree.

@Sisisisi

All my language talks about the mother, because this whole thread talks about the mother. The term the OP hated was "Full time mum". You are talking about something else entirely. If you want to talk about something else, carry on. But don't shoehorn your agenda into my posts. It is confusing.

@Justine878

Employers should allow more flexibility and pay better wages. Good childcare should be fully funded.

Both parents should be considered equally responsible for childcare

The op was originally about the term full time mum but had clearly moved on to discuss the wider gender political implications of how parenting (men and women) affects attitudes to women and how we parent

Its not at all confusing to include men's roles in these attitudes

Topgub - you talk about 'ingrained societal influences.' But the point is, everyone - including you - is a victim of ingrained societal influences. You have internalised that you need to work to be equal to men. Fine. That's a view. If that's important to you, it's important to you.

All you seem to want to do is replace one set of ingrained attitudes with another. Ultimately, women should not need to be second-guessing themselves all the time. Life is too short. You just have to be honest about how you personally feel and own it. You can't dictate that others should feel the same as you. That's madness.

I get that -I had 2 mat leaves in 4 years so was at home paid for 2.5 of those 4 years
Never used CC
its not about telling women what they can and cant do and its not about women not liking being at home or being with their DC
Some will always prefer SAH, some WOH.
Some like both, supported properly by their partner.
Some have zero choice.
Thats the point whilst women are considered the default CC then working lives are set up to benefit men.
Everyone could still make their own choice but on the background of a society that is fairer to women and children.

Topgub

"The choice has societal impacts and is influenced by cultural and societal ideals."

Well so does going to work. You could just as easily say "two parents going to work has societal impacts and is influenced by cultural and societal ideals." This is such a blah statement.

Threads and conversations move on.
Meanwhile men are laughing their heads off and women are still being shafted.

All you seem to want to do is replace one set of ingrained attitudes with another. Ultimately, women should not need to be second-guessing themselves all the time. Life is too short. You just have to be honest about how you personally feel and own it. You can't dictate that others should feel the same as you. That's madness.

Completely agree with this, and is my takeaway comment of the thread.

Since when is women wanting to be with their children a result of sexism in society?

Maybe they simply just want to be near their children?

It’s not a conspiracy.

@mnmoaner

You appear to be confusing me stating my opinion and challenging/debating others as the same as me demanding everyone thinks like me.

Have you never been disagreed with before? You do know that people are allowed to have different opinions, right?

And yes, of course I'm influenced by our societal ideals although I try not to conform to all of them. I dont value the obsession with appearance for example.

But I haven't internalised that I need to work to be equal to men.

I have internalised that working should be an equally valid and important choice for women and men. Can you imagine a world with no women in power? No female doctors or lawyers? No women in any workplace?

I have internalised that men should be equally responsible for looking after their children. Thats its not solely a womans job to 'raise' them

And just like you wouldn't work for any money, I wouldn't stay home.

Topgub - but who are you (or anyone) to be telling any other woman they can't trust their own minds or their own instincts?

I would call that the ultimate in misogyny

It really is, isn’t it?

The argument is, “If you are making choices that I don’t approve of, it can only be because you have been neurogroomed. You’re not in your right mind, poor woman, but it’s not your fault. Listen, just do as I say, and everything will be fine. Honestly, it’s for your own good.”

Which sounds eerily familiar, doesn’t it?

@WalkingOnTheCracks

Except no one is saying that

The denial of any societal influence on our choices is odd.

Its well researched and documented

But that is no way the same as saying women don't know their own minds.

Such a lazy argument.