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to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids

309 replies

HopefulRose · 31/08/2022 09:31

Noella McHaher is a ten year old model whose parents said she “self identified” as a girl at the age of two. Her parents are also trans.

If my two year old identified as a smoker, I wouldn’t allow them cigarettes. Why is this movement so hellbent on putting children into boxes instead of letting them just grow up without defined labels?

Speaking generally, there is a link between children who “hate” their biological sex and child abuse. Children who have been SA sometimes self harm as a way of trying to prevent further abuse. I’m worried that these signs are being missed.

am I alone on this?

OP posts:
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AryaStarkWolf · 31/08/2022 17:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2022 17:00

So it's getting more refined now; I'm getting a clearer picture.

So, a person who can't have a baby, in a country with limited medical provision meaning there is no investigation, is not a woman?

No. Try reading posts. If a female person wants to have a baby but can't investigations will be done. Those investigations will look at her female reproductive system and ability to produce ova. They won't be testing sperm, because that would mean the person was male.

I don't even know why you're entertaining this guy, he knows perfectly well what a woman is. The fact that we're all even entertaining this as a serious question and tying ourselves in knots trying to explain it to a guy pretending he's confused is a win for them I'd imagine.

SpinCityBlues · 31/08/2022 17:05

Luckily some people - even academics - still know what chromosomes are.

TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2022 17:09

I was slightly sympathetic to our new friend on the thread the other day, but the mask is beginning to slip here, so no more.

Its not even relevant to the main subject of this thread, which isn't about the ideology at all, more about the appropriateness of transing toddlers.

Trying20 · 31/08/2022 17:09

This reply has been withdrawn

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Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 17:09

Eeksteek

I am sorry this is long, but I wanted to reply to your long post since you put so much effort into it.

Chromosomes? Are we chromosome testing these kids?

Hermaphratidism in people happens.

Please do not bring people’s differenced in sex development into this as a counterpoint. Maybe you got it from your biology degree, but it was a weak argument there for destabilising known science about sex in humans.

In fact, the overwhelming majority of those with differences in sex development are in fact categorised into male and female due to their specific medical condition. Something you would know from your degree.

Please take notice of those across the internet with these medical conditions, and stop using them for your own political purpose. Whatever that is.

Hermaphratidism in people happens. Some people have a mix of sexual organs.

No one is born with both ovaries and testes that both work. That is point. And very miniscule numbers of people with differences of sex development are born with both. About 500 people have had ovotesticular disorder from a study I have read. And about two thirds of those have a combined tissue of ovotestes. I am sure you must know this if you studied it in your degree.

But, I am very happy to see other facts about this. I would love to see the information that convinced you.

hormone levels.

Yes. PCOS is a female medical condition and it produces an increased amount of testosterone. The increase barely touches, if at all, the male range. It is normal within the female range. I have attached a chart below, apologies that it is unclear. I believe the person who produced it has been suspended from twitter for stating biological sex exists. It comes from some of the information contained in this paper though.

academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770

Dr Handelman is an Endocrinologist and his particular speciality is testosterone and its impact on human bodies.

Again, I don’t feel that PCOS is not a strong enough reason to say that males can be female etc. It does not weaken what defines a female or a male in terms of reproduction, which is the purpose of sex categories.

And again, adding artificial sex organs or removing sex organs is just that. Adding artificial sex organs to any person is a male or female with artificial sex organs. And same with the removal. Of course, it does not change the genetic make up of the body.

Plenty of other hormones can be affected by all kinds of things. They must be, otherwise we couldn’t alter them with medications. Some times, the levels are normal, but some people are more sensitive than others, so even an objective hormone range isn’t definitive.

If a male artificially changes their hormone levels, they are simply males with artificially changed hormone levels. They are not female. If a male retains their testes, and stops suppressing their testosterone, their cells will revert to producing testosterone. If they remove their testes, they will still not be female… just males without testes who need supplemental hormones.

Again, it does not weaken proven science on the reproductive needs of the human race.

External sex organs? Y’all know blokes with boobs, right? And anyway, they don’t always correspond with chromosomes, which is the ultimate biological sex, even though it isn’t always accurate. So we’ve come full circle.

Of course, males have breasts. Breasts on females are there to feed infants and have a different tissue arrangement to do this. Males do not have all these components within the breast. Yes, they may secrete a substance, but it is not designed to feed nutrition to a child at a specific age, under specific conditions. It is not comparable as a nutrition source to infants.

So… yes, they have breasts, but that doesn’t influence whether they can change sex. Males have moobs too. Still not a female breast.

So, we need a real mix of characteristics to define sex. It’s much more nebulous scientifically than people seem to think. And while wild discrepancies are well documented in the medical literature, as it’s so complex its hardly surprising there are more mild cases of gender fluidity. Because gender is different from sex anyway. It’s not physical, is a societal construct. It’s how we treat people based on their appearance, which is never a good thing, is it?

Sex is binary. You require a sperm and an egg to create a new life. There is no third sex and never has been.

I am happy if you have other information though, please do share it.
A female human has a body formed around the production of eggs, the large gamete that is needed to reproduce, whether that body has ever, will ever, or is producing those large gametes. The stage of production is irrelevant for the categorisation of those females being categorised as females. It matters very much on a personal level for that individual, but not for the sex categorisation.
Female bodies come with a very wide range of differences. But they are ALL formed around that specific function.

No male can change sex. Ever. There are no third sexes. There are no humans producing a third gamete, and nor are they self-fertilising.
And with that female body, comes negative sexist discrimination, bodily control and abuse. Because of the female body.

Should we be ensuring children’s health is protected and teens have good mental health support? Hell yes. Should we be protecting women’s spaces and (especially) sporting events? Yep, for sure. Are there likely to be other issues. Yep. Can we solve is without all this hyperbole and hysteria around ‘knowing what a woman is?’ Of course, if people calm down and stop being so childish about it.

If you cannot have a stable definition of what is a female in law, you cannot protect females.

We have seen this already through many instances where the word ‘woman’ has been used to allow males access into female single sex spaces, sports, roles set aside for females for a variety of needs and the list goes on. This is not a drill. This has already happened in the UK in some areas of policy. You can call it hyperbole and hysteria, however, some of us will work towards reversing these changes that are already beginning to cause harm where sex actually does matter.

The harm has already been done to our children, it is too late for some, but not for others. The changes are now underway because of that very ‘hyperbole and hysteria’ you are denouncing.

If you are untouched by these changes, then in my opinion, you are in a privileged position in this instance. Others have been harmed, I am about working to strengthen their protections and get their needs met.

So by all means be sceptical about trans people. But don’t claim it’s a scientifically sound position on gender, because it’s not.

I don’t believe anyone who has followed this closely makes that position. Sex is scientifically proven to be either male and female and this has not changed for millennia or more. Gender is completely different.

And don’t claim that it’s feminist position either.

Sorry, what is this feminist position you are referring to please?

It’s a patriarchal strategy to divide and rule, as always. We are going to end up with a patriarchal Tory government (again) because they have successfully convinced the large majority of women that a tiny sub-set of trans women threaten their rights and identity. When the actual problem is, as it always has been, the patriarchy.

Sure. The Patriarchy. … who are they again? Which people are the patriarchy please?

to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids
itsgettingweird · 31/08/2022 17:11

Trying if you are a gay man surely you do know what a woman is? And a man is?

Because if you don't how do you know you are homosexual and sexually attracted to men and not woman?

You've literally answered you're own inflammatory question!

Trying20 · 31/08/2022 17:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This post has been withdrawn by the OP

TheElementsSong · 31/08/2022 17:14

I'm invoking Bunbury.

SpinCityBlues · 31/08/2022 17:15

Will there be Bunbury cakes?

Topgub · 31/08/2022 17:15

@Trying20

Why would anyone object?

You keep doing you hun.

stode · 31/08/2022 17:17

TheElementsSong · 31/08/2022 17:14

I'm invoking Bunbury.

This

AryaStarkWolf · 31/08/2022 17:25

This reply has been deleted

This post has been withdrawn by the OP

I don't think I said any of that or are you talking to @Ereshkigalangcleg ?

Floisme · 31/08/2022 17:28

Oh hello Trying20.

I really wish there was some way I could claim back the time I spent on what I thought was a robust but respectful exchange of views last night. I am at a time of life when I kind of resent wasting any of it, you know?

Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 17:29

Oh FFS!

I cannot believe we are still in discussion with anyone about what a 'woman' is.

As posters have stated. A woman is an adult human female.

Now I will just rip this out of my bloody long essay of a post to continue:

A female human has a body formed around the production of eggs, the large gamete that is needed to reproduce, whether that body has ever, will ever, or is producing those large gametes. The stage of production is irrelevant for the categorisation of those females being categorised as females. (It matters very much on a personal level for that individual, but not for the sex categorisation.)

Female bodies come with a very wide range of differences. But they are ALL formed around that specific function.

No male can change sex. Ever.

There are no third sexes.

There are no humans producing a third gamete, and nor are they self-fertilising.

And having body parts removed or not functioning does not make any difference at all to the categorisation of whether a body was formed for producing large gametes from ovaries (whether those ovaries function or even there) or small gametes from testes.

CrossStichQueen · 31/08/2022 17:29

This is the second thread this week Trying has successfully derailed the thread and somehow made it all about them.....

Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 17:30

Floisme · 31/08/2022 17:28

Oh hello Trying20.

I really wish there was some way I could claim back the time I spent on what I thought was a robust but respectful exchange of views last night. I am at a time of life when I kind of resent wasting any of it, you know?

Grin

I just spat out my wine!

Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 17:31

CrossStichQueen · 31/08/2022 17:29

This is the second thread this week Trying has successfully derailed the thread and somehow made it all about them.....

yes. When I started to process what happened on the other thread and looked at the progression of that thread into the night, it was very very enlightening. I wonder if others noticed the same....

Floisme · 31/08/2022 17:32

Please don't waste your wine Helleofabore - wasting time is bad enough.

Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 17:33

ASDstruggles · 31/08/2022 15:10

As the mother of a pre teen daughter with ASD the idea that my daughter is prone to trans ideology being pushed onto her is fucking terrifying. The thought of the likes of mermaids getting their hands on her confused, prepubescent brain and pumping it full of their ideas keeps me awake at night.

when she reaches 25 and her brain is fully matured she can make whatever decisions she wants and I will love her just the same, but the thought of my tomboy being persuaded to make permanent, life changing decisions that she later regrets and I have to go along with otherwise I’m an abusive TERF scares the shit out of me.

Flowers

I understand very much where you are coming from.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2022 17:33

I don't even know why you're entertaining this guy, he knows perfectly well what a woman is. The fact that we're all even entertaining this as a serious question and tying ourselves in knots trying to explain it to a guy pretending he's confused is a win for them I'd imagine.

It was more for the lurkers as I didn't want his gotcha nonsense to go unchallenged, but I take your point.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/08/2022 17:34

Oh look a man is here to tell us how knowing what a woman is just so gosh darn difficult isn’t??? Goodness how on earth has the human species managed to survive & reproduce when its soooo hard to tell

funny how men had no problem knowing who to deny the vote too or who not to give a mortgage too without a father or husband to guarantee it

ideasmirrour · 31/08/2022 17:38

Can we solve is without all this hyperbole and hysteria around ‘knowing what a woman is?’ Of course, if people calm down and stop being so childish about it. Are this issues more important for women than stopping the world being run by and for old, rich white men.

But how will we know who the old rich white men are, @Trying20 , what with biological sex being SO complicated?

I wonder if it’s super complicated when we want to be “knowing what a woman is”, but really very easy when we want to know about men! Knowing about men is important and straightforward and all this woman stuff is just getting in the way of where our focus should be — firmly on men. Old white rich men! Where are they? What are they doing? Where are they going?

In any case, the existence of intersex/DSD conditions in complicating biological sex has zero relevance to transgender ideology. Because the entire point is that men want to claim they are in fact women despite any “biological” evidence at all. Their argument is that gender is a spiritual state of mind, not anything to do with biology.

The entire ideology is so riddled with holes, hypocrisy, contradictions, idiocies and logical fallacies that arguing with genderwoo enthusiasts is like shooting fish in a barrel, to be honest.

SidewaysOtter · 31/08/2022 17:40

Oh look a man is here to tell us how knowing what a woman is just so gosh darn difficult isn’t???

to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids
Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 17:44

It is always for the lurker eresh.

Anyway, HopefulRose I think that this is a very sad situation. And I expect that child will take a great deal of time as an adult to process their childhood.

Why is this movement so hellbent on putting children into boxes instead of letting them just grow up without defined labels?

My teenager told me that there is security in fitting in with pinning those labels onto yourself.

I was very interested in Lu901 comments. Having had 5 friends within a group of 7 of my teen's friends declare trans identities over covid, I have seen first hand just how this can happen.

itsgettingweird · 31/08/2022 17:55

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This post has been withdrawn by the OP

If you say your a male and a lesbian I'd say you're even more,confused than you're coming across here WinkGrin

Although quite frankly you could "say" you're the queen of England. Doesn't make it true!

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