to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids

[HopefulRose]

Noella McHaher is a ten year old model whose parents said she “self identified” as a girl at the age of two. Her parents are also trans.

If my two year old identified as a smoker, I wouldn’t allow them cigarettes. Why is this movement so hellbent on putting children into boxes instead of letting them just grow up without defined labels?

Speaking generally, there is a link between children who “hate” their biological sex and child abuse. Children who have been SA sometimes self harm as a way of trying to prevent further abuse. I’m worried that these signs are being missed.

am I alone on this?

It’s not possible to change sex. I certainly never implied it was. I said was possible to fit definitely in neither catergory. The key point here are that sex is not as biologically black and white as people think. But that really doesn’t matter, because we are discussing gender. Which is far, far more about social issues than biological ones. I often wonder if we had no sexism - if sexes were truly treated equally - whether there would be any issues at all. I think misogyny is a far, far bigger issue, affecting far more women that trans issues, and that the hysterical back lash against trans women is just an attempt by the patriarchy to divide all women, and continue the misogyny that has worked well for them for so long. So I can’t get all that excited about it as a problem. It seems such a hysterical response with people talking about being ‘terrified’ that their children will be exposed to this ideology by ‘captured’ schools and ‘chilling’ tales of people living trans lives. The language is a bit cult-like, and I can’t understand the strength of feeling behind it. Some people feel very masculine despite having a feminine body. Or vice versa. No biggie. (Which is how I interpret ‘being born in the wrong body’ @najene. You can’t really define someone who is the other sex in their own mind if you can’t define sex as a category anyway. I think I may have been responding to someone who quoted your post. Apologies for any confusion)

@Whatwouldscullydo it’s also relevant to consider that science of any sort is not ‘finished’ there can’t just be a blood test or a brain scan for lots of problems. Even physical ones. Let alone complex psycho-social ones. We can’t just do a brain scan and diagnose someone with depression, or anorexia, but they are definite problems with real effects. There might even be some completely undiscovered physical discrepancy. Maybe there’s a genetic disorder in some people’s brains which renders them hyper-sensitive to sex hormones and makes them ‘feel’ very much of one sex or another. But it’s a sensitivity, not an actual hormone imbalance, present in the brain, but not the body, the way that type 2 diabetes is a problem with insulin sensitivity not production. Maybe in 50 years we’ll be horrified at how trans people were treated because it’s a measurable thing. Or maybe we’ll be horrified because society changes and we’ll look in the outrage people feel now the way we look at racism in the seventies. I don’t know. I’m not saying either is right or wrong I’m just saying we don’t know everything, and it’s possible, and the scale of the reaction feels very disproportionate to me.

I’m fairly neutral about trans people. I know a couple. They’re harmless enough. I can see that for a (relatively) few women there are real issues with trans-women who would previously have been excluded from women’s spaces (but that these were largely caused by plain vanilla men in the first place and working on crimes against women by men would be addressing this problem more fundamentally) I’m uncomfortable with self ID, because of the potential for abuse (which is also a misogyny issue) and there are obvious issues with fairness in sport. But I can’t really see policing or licensing of gender change going well, either. I still think it’s a smoke-screen for bigger issues. And the hysteria really doesn’t seem to match the practical scale of the issues. I’m certain more women would benefit overall if the energy against transwomen was redirected toward the patriarchy.

But that still doesn't explain why gender becomes everyone else's problem. It physically does not work unless others play along.

Why is anyone else responsible. Why set these kids up to become needy and reliant on others.

I said was possible to fit definitely in neither catergory.

Thats not true either. There's no such thing as a true hermaphrodite human. Individuals with DSD may have imperfect expression of their sex, but they do still fit into one category or another, at a fundamental level.

Some people feel very masculine despite having a feminine body. Or vice versa. No biggie. (Which is how I interpret ‘being born in the wrong body’)

How does anyone 'feel' masculine or in the 'wrong body' if they've never been in a masculine body. They can't know how that feels. The only thing they're responding to are societal stereotypes of femininity or masculinity, which is what would should be tackling rather than giving 'wrong body' narratives airtime

It seems such a hysterical response with people talking about being ‘terrified’ that their children will be exposed to this ideology by ‘captured’ schools

You don't think it's natural to be extremely worried about pathways of care for confused teens that can encompass puberty blockers, hormone treatment and surgery, that may leave people infertile and incapable of full sexual pleasure? You don't see issues with that?

I agree with this, and it’s very well expressed.

😂 😂 😂

The barrel scraping from you today

I can see that for a (relatively) few women there are real issues with trans-women who would previously have been excluded from women’s spaces (but that these were largely caused by plain vanilla men in the first place and working on crimes against women by men would be addressing this problem more fundamentally)

The unfortunate truth is that we've had millennia to 'work on crimes against women by men' and not achieved anything like safety for them. Rather than live in lalaland, better to defend their spaces.

However what you (and indeed many, many others) are saying here is that you don't give too many shits about these women. Which, while utterly depressing, is good insight into how women can actually fight back here. In a twisted way we need to focus on the female 'winners' in things like women's sports, rather than the very vulnerable. So thanks for helping to clarify that for me.

My feeling on this is if everyone shaved their hair and walked around naked they would either be visibly male or female (bar any genetic anomalies) everything else is just a social construct

The key point here are that sex is not as biologically black and white as people think.

Most people here aren't unaware that disorders of sex development can occur. But there are only two sexes, because there are only two reproductive roles, and two gametes, ova and sperm.

I can see that for a (relatively) few women there are real issues with trans-women who would previously have been excluded from women’s spaces

It's not a relatively few women. It's most women. Your view is the fringe one.

But autistic people are normal dear. 🙄

Shall we get out that YouGov poll again that said most people weren't paying that much attention? Or shall we just take your word as the only truth?

How about we get out the multiple YouGov and other polls which say that women don't want penis in their spaces?

I’m certain more women would benefit overall if the energy against transwomen was redirected toward the patriarchy

They are the patriarchy. Their ideology is detrimental to females as a sex class.

Redefining 'women' to include a subset of men is also massively misogynistic.

And that most people of both sexes neither support legal self ID or males in women's sports?

You’ve got literally zero self-consciousness or shame about putting down women’s concerns as “hysteria” whilst talking about the “patriarchy”?

That’s quite literally “the patriarchy” at work. Dismissing women as “hysterical” is a centuries old technique of patriarchal argument. Do you think we don’t see through the sheer cheek of it all?

I agree 100%

My DS feels he is a girl - he is autistic. There are 2 others in his friendship group that also identify as trans but they are girls that want to identify as boys - they are also both autistic. It does worry me that there is such a link with autism. On the other hand, I feel it is just part of trying to work out your identity that all teens go through.

😂

You don't seem to be able to understand my words 🤦‍♀️

Let me spell it out for you.

I agree with what she said.

I simply added another opinion of her in general.

I'm able to separate the 2 things and have 2 narratives at once.

I'm sorry that you can only have 1 conversation about 1 topic at once. It was very wrong of me to make the assumption everyone had good fluid conversation skills.

But just for clarity and to reiterate - I agree with what she said. But she literally quoted the law. That's exactly what her job is!

Yep.

And yet you'd still have a load of people who would recognise which ones were men and then want to define why the others are woman!

Please, you are being ridiculous. And I suspect you know you are.
The question isn't can every female give birth, but can any male?

Hopefully ,but in the case of one person identifying as male ,they have statred hormone treatment, which is concerning if they later decide they are not trans ,this patcicular person isn't in the UK

The key point here are that sex is not as biologically black and white as people think.

As other posters have said, it is. Just because there are very, very rare cases which don't fit the precise norms, the very fact of their being identified as variance indicates there is a binary norm of two sexes.

the hysterical back lash against trans women... It seems such a hysterical response... And the hysteria really doesn’t seem to match the practical scale of the issues

Hysteria is a gendered abuse against women ever speaking up for themselves. Using that term to describe women talking out against the abuse of women and children is really not ok.

people talking about being ‘terrified’ that their children will be exposed to this ideology by ‘captured’ schools and ‘chilling’ tales of people living trans lives. The language is a bit cult-like, and I can’t understand the strength of feeling behind it.

Modern trans ideology is the thing that's cult-like. TRAs talk about "feelings" and "knowing" and "personal truths", all of which are much more cult-like than "can we slow down and get actual medical research before pumping stuff into teens, and maybe look at why this ideology is being pushed and who actually benefits before we roll this out in every school across the country as a matter of course". One is cult-like. The other is rational.

Women here are worried about vulnerable, developing children being repeatedly and constantly exposed to questions about their gender identity. Loads of women on here have talked about how differently their lives and health would have gone if they were growing up now and had those questions and comments pushed at them, and none of them were positive about it. The earlier analogy about parents who constantly talk about food, portions, healthy eating and the relationship their children will have with eating is a good one. Children and teenagers shouldn't be thinking constantly about anything, and certainly not about something as fluid, developing, and vulnerable to outside social pressures as "gender identity". On top of that, the pathway of experimental medication and surgery of course is something any parent would be worried about. None of this is hysterical. All of this is chilling.

Maybe in 50 years we’ll be horrified at how trans people were treated because it’s a measurable thing. Or maybe we’ll be horrified because society changes and we’ll look in the outrage people feel now the way we look at racism in the seventies. I don’t know. I’m not saying either is right or wrong I’m just saying we don’t know everything, and it’s possible, and the scale of the reaction feels very disproportionate to me.

That's fine that you think it's disproportionate. To the mothers and fathers who are dealing with children who are facing social pressures they might not even be aware of, and insisting on medications that will damage and shorten their lives because of social trends and contagion, it's pretty horrifying and doesn't actually look like a civil rights movement at all.

I’m certain more women would benefit overall if the energy against transwomen was redirected toward the patriarchy.

Again: TRAs are the patriarchy.

Explain to me again how the laws being changed to prevent trans men benefiting from male-based positions (aristocratic inheritances, Irish priesthoods) is part of this great positive blurring of sexes/genders/human body mishmash of human rights celebration? Please explain how modern trans ideology benefits women, rather than punishes, even one tiny bit?

Wow this thread really took off.

I think the reason it’s bothering me is because I don’t feel I can safely discuss this in public due to fear of being branded a ‘terf’ or ‘anti trans’ which I’m not. But I’m afraid that lots of us women are feeling this way and are being silenced and there is no one openly in politics handling this issue logically.