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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to worry about transgender ideology being pushed on kids

309 replies

HopefulRose · 31/08/2022 09:31

Noella McHaher is a ten year old model whose parents said she “self identified” as a girl at the age of two. Her parents are also trans.

If my two year old identified as a smoker, I wouldn’t allow them cigarettes. Why is this movement so hellbent on putting children into boxes instead of letting them just grow up without defined labels?

Speaking generally, there is a link between children who “hate” their biological sex and child abuse. Children who have been SA sometimes self harm as a way of trying to prevent further abuse. I’m worried that these signs are being missed.

am I alone on this?

OP posts:
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Whatwouldscullydo · 31/08/2022 15:03

A hysterectomy is an exclusively female experience.

christmascook · 31/08/2022 15:04

Emmelina · 31/08/2022 10:16

I think there are some parents out there who see their child do something that is stereotypically not associated with their gender and go “oh well they must be X inside!”
show me a 3,4 year old who doesn’t like glitter and bright colours!
I was a bit of a tomboy growing up - hated dresses because it stopped me from climbing trees without showing my knickers, which of course wasn’t ladylike according to my mum! I preferred my hair short as I didn’t like the feel of my hair being pulled back tightly. I was rarely a ‘clean’ little girl.
If I was a child today I’m sure someone would plant the “maybe you’re really a boy?” seed!

I agree, I was very much a football mad tomboy and hated anything girly. I often say that if I was a child today I'd be made to feel I was in the wrong body.

It doesn't sit well with me that a child wants to make such big decisions, I know how fickle mine are. When I was young it was accepted that I was a tomboy. I think in todays world with everything we need available to us immediately that the next generations think if they feel/want/need something then it must happen straight away instead of considering options and waiting.

I'm not necessarily comparing having a sex change to getting a same day Amazon order but I think the days of waiting and being sure in your decision making have long gone.

midgetastic · 31/08/2022 15:05

Anyway OP yes I think it is worrying

It's lying to the child - a female who doesn't get their period should be worried, a male who thinks he gets a period should be in hospital

It reinforces stereotypes and the idea that a female brain is less than a man's in some fields

It leads to unnecessary surgery and all it's risks

And as you say the association with things like autism or abuse should not be ignored

MbatataOwl · 31/08/2022 15:05

Woman = adult human female.
Female = of the sex that bears children. (That doesn't mean every female gives birth, but only females give birth).

It's really, really simple.

midgetastic · 31/08/2022 15:07

I will not respond to any more nonsense

Trying20 · 31/08/2022 15:08

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ASDstruggles · 31/08/2022 15:10

As the mother of a pre teen daughter with ASD the idea that my daughter is prone to trans ideology being pushed onto her is fucking terrifying. The thought of the likes of mermaids getting their hands on her confused, prepubescent brain and pumping it full of their ideas keeps me awake at night.

when she reaches 25 and her brain is fully matured she can make whatever decisions she wants and I will love her just the same, but the thought of my tomboy being persuaded to make permanent, life changing decisions that she later regrets and I have to go along with otherwise I’m an abusive TERF scares the shit out of me.

Tuilpmouse · 31/08/2022 15:11

This quote from the article stood out to me:

"She would refuse to wear boy clothes and have tantrums because she was so young, she knew what she wanted but didn’t have the words to say it."

It seems that because "she" wasn't happy at a young age with wearing clothes that society and fashion arbitrarily identified as being for boys, "she" couldn't be a boy who happened not to like boy's clothes, "she" had to be girl because "she" didn't wanted to wear girls' clothes!

This mentality is so fucked up, and so backward, it's crazy. All these supposedly modern liberal types can't seem to cope with gender non-conformity... No! Liking lipstick, frilly dresses, baking cakes etc. seems to be what defines you as a girl, not your sexual organs and chromosomes!

ideasmirrour · 31/08/2022 15:14

Eeksteek · 31/08/2022 12:45

So, I dont know a lot about trans stuff. But I do know about ‘biological sex’. What defines biological sex? Really think about this as a scientific exercise. What?

Chromosomes? Are we chromosome testing these kids? I don’t think we are, but even if we were there are well documented, decades old cases of chromosomes not correlating with physical presentation of sex. WTAF? Really? Yes really. Because genes are just blueprints. On their own, they don’t do anything. They need to be switched on. And some people’s don’t. We don’t know why.

Man. OK, lets look at internal sex organs. They’re pretty important. Ovaries and whatnot. Except they control sex by producing hormones. And some people don’t produce high enough levels of hormones for their chromosomal sex and their appearance to correlate. Hermaphratidism in people happens. Some people have a mix of sexual organs. Some people are born girls, because they don’t have penis’ and that’s as far as anyone looks and then hormones levels surge at puberty and they display male characteristics.

OK then, hormone levels. But they vary widely between people. They are controlled by things that are not sex-dependent. PCOS is super common (like 10% of women, I think?) I have PCOS and the only hormone that’s out of normal range is my testosterone. It’s high. But I’m definitely still female. It affects things like facial hair and weight and stuff, sure, but I still look female, despite an elevated male hormone and some definitely masculine features. Plenty of other hormones can be affected by all kinds of things. They must be, otherwise we couldn’t alter them with medications. Some times, the levels are normal, but some people are more sensitive than others, so even an objective hormone range isn’t definitive.

Bugger. External sex organs? Y’all know blokes with boobs, right? And anyway, they don’t always correspond with chromosomes, which is the ultimate biological sex, even though it isn’t always accurate. So we’ve come full circle.

So, we need a real mix of characteristics to define sex. It’s much more nebulous scientifically than people seem to think. And while wild discrepancies are well documented in the medical literature, as it’s so complex its hardly surprising there are more mild cases of gender fluidity. Because gender is different from sex anyway. It’s not physical, is a societal construct. It’s how we treat people based on their appearance, which is never a good thing, is it?

I don’t really care how people define themselves. I really don’t care who uses what bog. Just don’t piss on the seat. There are massively bigger issues in society. Should we be ensuring children’s health is protected and teens have good mental health support? Hell yes. Should we be protecting women’s spaces and (especially) sporting events? Yep, for sure. Are there likely to be other issues. Yep. Can we solve is without all this hyperbole and hysteria around ‘knowing what a woman is?’ Of course, if people calm down and stop being so childish about it. Are this issues more important for women than stopping the world being run by and for old, rich white men? Nope. Are they part of it? Yep.

So by all means be sceptical about trans people. But don’t claim it’s a scientifically sound position on gender, because it’s not. And don’t claim that it’s feminist position either. It’s a patriarchal strategy to divide and rule, as always. We are going to end up with a patriarchal Tory government (again) because they have successfully convinced the large majority of women that a tiny sub-set of trans women threaten their rights and identity. When the actual problem is, as it always has been, the patriarchy.

Oh yeah. Except — trans women also are “the patriarchy”.

And your patronising “science” on biological sex is also very schematic and simplified.

Maybe you could quit the lecturing tone telling other women what they should think and what should be important to them and to feminism?

Topgub · 31/08/2022 15:17

@Trying20

Nah.

You spouting nonsense trying to pretend the clear definition doesn't make sense, when it so obviously does, doesn't mean there isn't 1.

itsgettingweird · 31/08/2022 15:17

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/08/2022 15:03

A hysterectomy is an exclusively female experience.

Exactly.

Someone who has had a hysterectomy doesn't need an investigation into why they can't bare a child.

They had a uterus and now they don't.

When I had mine no one checked to define if I was or wasn't a woman beforehand - it was taken as a given.

The same way it's taken as a given I still am one!

AryaStarkWolf · 31/08/2022 15:20

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An adult human female, easy as chips

LastTrainEast · 31/08/2022 15:24

"So if a woman is what we all came out of, someone who hasn't had anyone coming out of them is... not a woman? Don't think that one quite works, does it?"

This is the level of argument you get from a teenager who is trying to justify not doing chores lol

As others have pointed out no one had any difficulty telling men from women (and bulls from cows) until quite recently when a special interest group arose which wanted to erase women's rights.

At the end of the day grown-ups can tell which is which. Dogs and cats can tell. The Duck Billed Platypus knows too.

Trying20 · 31/08/2022 15:24

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Beowulfa · 31/08/2022 15:26

If sex is really so fluid and complicated, humans would never have been able to domesticate livestock and start living in settlements rather than hunting/gathering. There are many things that are hard work in farming but sexing calves and lambs is not one of them. Laughable to suggest that hominids (extremely recent in evolutionary terms) have some new and magical kind of reproduction that doesn't involve 1 sperm plus 1 egg = baby.

But all this is just a distraction from the thread- which is about shit parenting, the horrors of the modelling industry, and the potential horrowshow that this 10 year old has ahead of them for having the temerity to choose the "wrong" type of clothes before he could even spell trousers.

Topgub · 31/08/2022 15:27

@Trying20

Yes, the definition of a woman is an adult human female

VestofAbsurdity · 31/08/2022 15:29

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Not deflecting just pointing out your hypocrisy.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 31/08/2022 15:34

That poster is a gay man who has no skin in this game from what I can tell. He knows exactly who is a woman and who is a man when he wants to have sex, as he said on another thread. Everything else is just word games.

TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2022 15:38

Coming back to the issue in question.

Problematic as I find the parents in this case, the fashion industry should also be mindful of its responsibilities as an industry.

Making it financially advantageous to transition young children is fraught with problems - something they shouldn't be touching with a barge pole.

Beowulfa · 31/08/2022 15:39

Yes, as a gay bloke Trying20, if you're still confused about what a man or woman is, please check with the UK government. As a previous poster pointed out, the Gender Recognition Act does not allow the daughter of an aristocrat to inherit the title if she legally follows the GRA process to become a "man". Ireland has self-ID, but a trans man cannot become a priest.

It's almost as though those in power know exactly what a woman is when it comes to wealth, status and power?

puffyisgood · 31/08/2022 15:39

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by a distance the best answer to that question is, as the kids say, 'your mum'. it's comprehensive on a number of levels.

WifeMotherWorker · 31/08/2022 15:46

YANBU - children need to have the freedom to be children without being given labels or coercion to go in a certain direction based on individual or organisational agendas. There are too many activists in prominent positions of power. Stonewall and Mermaids should have a full public investigation and ultimately be shut down. The harm to this generation will be scandalous and shocking.

midgetastic · 31/08/2022 15:47

How does he know he is gay ? Perhaps he is really a heterosexual female ? Albeit transgender

Perhaps his confusion comes from his denial of his femininity?

AryaStarkWolf · 31/08/2022 15:52

Beowulfa · 31/08/2022 15:39

Yes, as a gay bloke Trying20, if you're still confused about what a man or woman is, please check with the UK government. As a previous poster pointed out, the Gender Recognition Act does not allow the daughter of an aristocrat to inherit the title if she legally follows the GRA process to become a "man". Ireland has self-ID, but a trans man cannot become a priest.

It's almost as though those in power know exactly what a woman is when it comes to wealth, status and power?

Yep, you can't identify into privilege it seems. I for one am SHOCKED to the core about that

TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2022 15:52

How does he know he is gay ? Perhaps he is really a heterosexual female ? Albeit transgender

Great point 😜