Primary schools and childcare arent designed for 2 full-time working parents

[Greywall2]

In 2019, 7 out of 10 households with dependent children had two working parents - ons survey . After covid and with the cost of living crisis, it's likely there has been an increase.

Primary school opening times are between 9am and 3pm (give or take 15 minutes), but a standard working day is 9 till 5. For children with 2 working parents this means that without wrapping around childcare or very flexible working agreements in place, both cannot work full time hours.

Reasonably priced wrap around care is in place for some schools, but in many schools the only option for out of hours care is to employ a childminder or kids club to care for children out of hours. Nurseries tend to be open 8 - 6 and give more flexibility and by secondary school children are able to go to and from school by themselves.

AIBU to think that the government should assist primary schools to allow them to provide wrap around care? I am NOT saying that teachers should be available between 8am and 5 or 6pm, but that there should be a childcare option available.

Children are (rightly of course!) are legally required to have an education, but the timings of the provision mean that parents can't work in certain jobs and financially support their family. The parent/parents who can't afford wrap around care may get fired for not being at work on time and the parent/parents who don't drop off and pickup their children on time are punished as there is no one to look after them (of course as teachers have gone home).

Of course life is unfair and people should budget for childcare costs, but unexpected things happen such as the rise in energy prices or interest rate rises and the childcare options for primary aged children are seem very restrictive.

I mean it's not as simple as that and there's a lower limit but, in general, it kind of does.

Houses are only worth what they are worth because someone is willing and able to pay that amount for that house. If the overall income of the vast majority of the population fell (by making one income families the norm) then, after a short time, house prices would crash too. As would the prices of other expensive, high profit, items. Though that level of crash really wouldn't be desireable as it would throw loads of people into sub-prime mortgages and potential cause significant economic problems at the same time.

My mum did something very similar and while I understand why she had to I absolutely did not aspire to that for myself.

I would very much like expectations to change and for childcare to be split more evenly between men and women but we are still a way off.

This

This works because Sweden is a high tax model. Brits would never vote for a party who suggest raising taxes. I think their highest rate is around 60% but schools are all high standard, everyone gets free school meals. Their social services are well funded.

So my schools wrap around care is run by a combination of TAs and kitchen staff. Kitchen staff cover breakfast club, two or three of them come in earlier than normal start time to run it. Think it’s £5 or £6? Starts at 7:45 and runs for an hour. Cereal and toast and childcare, easy activities just drawing, some games and Lego I think to keep them occupied.

Our after school is currently run by TAs but us under review. When I was a TA I did it. The TAs who do it are either childless or have grown up children and appreciate the extra money, I think one does every day a week and others do a couple each. It’s under review because there’s currently no other TAs who want to do it / can do it and one of the TAs is retiring at Christmas which is going to cause a shortage. I stepped back once I became a teacher and do end up covering sometimes but it makes life so much harder because it leaves me working late into the night. Hiring is currently a struggle. No one wants a job where the hours are 3:15 -6. Plus a bit more when children are late to be collected and set up/pack up - unpaid.

There is no funding for it, it all comes from parents fees. And if you want decent qualified and first aid trained staff, good resources, good food and quality care and activity, it’s going to come at a cost.

The debate at our school is to give it over to an outside company. It will send the price up. But we can’t staff it. Last advertisement for a breakfast club and / or after school care assistant produced one applicant. A college student, who then realised they wouldn’t make it to college on time. Can’t be surprised people don’t want those hours.

My old nursery used to provide wrap around after school care. In line with when funded children left for the day, we had a walking bus to the village school up the road and picked up WAC children and they came to our nursery, we had a WAC room which doubled as a holiday club room for the infant age range in the holidays.

And more and more jobs are requiring start and finishing times of 8am-6pm

Most definitely agree with this. Work routines can be flexible, as proved during lockdowns/pandemic in general and work places need to get with the times in order to keep our economy flowing....

Just imagine if the government were forward thinking enough to provide onsite crèches on all hospital sites. It would be so much easier to recruit and retain staff. Or am I being too simplistic ?

I work in breakfast and after school club-so open from 8am and take children to school for 8.50 start.Then open again at 3pm til 6pm.We are open all through holidays 8-6pm .I have looked after children from 3 years of age right the way through til 11years.A few were with us longer than their parents- it’s so sad to see a 3 year old dropped off at 8 and picked up at 6pm, ( days a week.They are so tired - they get home in time for a snack then it’s bed-and the next day is just a repeat of all the others

it just doesn’t seem right that children don’t get to see their parent/parents properly in the week, I wish there was a better way.
It is also hard to recruit staff as well as the hours will only suit a few people and we mostly need staff who are qualified already.

I think something like 50% of workers are in office jobs. It's by far the most common type of profession

I struggle with the quality of our wrap-around care compared to nursery tbh. I have no issue with my 3yo doing 9-6 in nursery. She is well cared for, has down time and is fed properly. Her sister in after school care doesn’t get anything like the same level of care, food is more snacky so she still needs dinner when she gets home and the care is generally run by students so can be a bit variable.

On the days I pick her up at 6 we need need to cram in a lot to evenings when she gets back. I don’t really have many other options for the days she needs it though. Tried looking for an after school nanny and no-one wants the hours, there are no childminders near me who do my school for pick-ups.

Our infant school finishes at 3 pm and Junior at 3.15pm there is a breakfast club and after school club covering both schools but with a massive waiting list so anyone starting the schools don't get in. We did have a lady who ran an external before and after school club who was a lot cheaper and opened longer the the school one .sadly her business folded during the pandemic as no parent was prepared to support her or pay her a small retainer to hold there spaces they were then all surprised she was no longer their for them when they need the care again and were very rude to her and badmouthed her over Facebook .

@arethereanyleftatall all parents I know both work full time. I don’t know how many could afford not to with bills and mortgage costs as they are…. we couldn’t

Recruitment for childcare jobs is in crisis. There is hardly anyone wanting to work 3-6!

I think it’s more that we need more flexible working and higher wages.

You're smashing it! Well done for being a fab mum doing your very best for your child. God knows as parents we feel guilty about bloody everything as it is without the internet feeling sorry for our kids. You're teaching work ethic and strength and resilience while making a good life for your child. Youre doing great! :D

This was a Labour policy, all school we going to be required to provide wrap around care. The Tories dropped it along with the promise to fix and/or upgrade all the school that needed it. I assume they thought the trophy wife or nanny could do school runs and buckets under roof leaks were good enough in the 1970s and 1980s so why not now!

@StepAwayFromGoogling What? That is not how the housing market works. of course it is. Houses are only worth what people can afford to pay for them. If the average family had half the income they currently earn then house prices would drop.

I agree that it's a problem but I don't think wrap around childcare is the solution. I don't think it's in the best interests of young children to be out of the home for such long hours, it'll be even longer than the standard 9-5 work day!

There needs to be higher wages and more flexible working hours.

I'm in Australia. I don't know of any primary schools that don't have OSHC (Out of school hours care), generally from 7:30am - 6pm, so you can opt in any morning and/or afternoon sessions you need. They're very reasonable - I'm a slightly abov e average earner, and pay about the equivalent of 15 pounds per week for 4 sessions a week (3 morning, 1 after school). They're run by separate staff from school, and the cost includes a simple breakfast if there before 8:15 (toast and hot chocolate) and decent snacks after schools (fruit, veg, dip, crackers etc plus one extra treat item - eg sausage rolls, mini pizzas, cake, etc).

However, agree that flexibility for work is key - not just constant wraparound care. I'm lucky to be able to work from home a day and leave early one day.

I had two babies and raised them through primary school years whilst myself and husband held down full on corporate roles. The sort of roles where folks regularly worked till 7pm, then went out for drinks on a Thursday and Friday and always got into work at 8am.... big city roles with big pay and a demanding boss who answered to THE Board. Guess what? I was the only working mother over the age of 35 in a twenty strong male sales team . I only stuck it out for the money and had to hire a live in nanny and then aupair to help me raise my children. Post pandemic, I now work from home more but i still work hours outside school hours. Much that I want to think we are being progressive in the work place the reality is that many FTSE100 companies demand long hours, at least in the early career stages and I just don't think companies WANT to be very flexible as they are driven by profit.

What do you think the kids of teachers do? 🤨
What about single parents who don't have two incomes and don't want a life on benefits?

My dc love wrap around care. They get to see friends, have fun, do interesting activities or just chill out. It's not as if those extra hours are sat at a desk doing times tables. Your comment is incredibly self-righteous and you come across as a bit of a prick 🙂.

Wow I take my hat off to you. That sounds tough! Of course companies don’t want to be flexible because family life doesn’t make them money. In the UK we care only about money so the attitude of employers is pretty dire where families are concerned x

Schools aren't there for the parents' benefit. They are there to educate children.

If there are two working parents in a household, they should be able to negotiate hours that allows one of you to do morning drop-off and one to do afternoon pickup. And having two salaries coming in, means you should be able to afford wraparound care.

As a single mum with no family support at all, and a completely absent ex, I still manage to work full time, and adjust/negotiate my employment to fit in with school and after school club, pay the mortgage etc. Now ds is teenage, I'm still doing it, because school is 20 miles away and there's no direct bus. It takes some flexing and a bit of planning but it can be done.

My ds always loved afterschool club. As an only child, they were his 'little tribe', they raced round together letting off steam for a couple of hours until I collected him. It worked well for everyone.

The problem, I think, is so many of us have been forced to move away from wider family. When I was growing up most kids had grandparents and aunties and uncles around the corner to help. But most people my age have no family nearby so rely on organized childcare which is 1) expensive and 2)exhausting for the child. Not sure what the solution is.