Primary schools and childcare arent designed for 2 full-time working parents

[Greywall2]

In 2019, 7 out of 10 households with dependent children had two working parents - ons survey . After covid and with the cost of living crisis, it's likely there has been an increase.

Primary school opening times are between 9am and 3pm (give or take 15 minutes), but a standard working day is 9 till 5. For children with 2 working parents this means that without wrapping around childcare or very flexible working agreements in place, both cannot work full time hours.

Reasonably priced wrap around care is in place for some schools, but in many schools the only option for out of hours care is to employ a childminder or kids club to care for children out of hours. Nurseries tend to be open 8 - 6 and give more flexibility and by secondary school children are able to go to and from school by themselves.

AIBU to think that the government should assist primary schools to allow them to provide wrap around care? I am NOT saying that teachers should be available between 8am and 5 or 6pm, but that there should be a childcare option available.

Children are (rightly of course!) are legally required to have an education, but the timings of the provision mean that parents can't work in certain jobs and financially support their family. The parent/parents who can't afford wrap around care may get fired for not being at work on time and the parent/parents who don't drop off and pickup their children on time are punished as there is no one to look after them (of course as teachers have gone home).

Of course life is unfair and people should budget for childcare costs, but unexpected things happen such as the rise in energy prices or interest rate rises and the childcare options for primary aged children are seem very restrictive.

👏

I think often the problem with debating this subject on MN is that we all give our 50p’s worth on our own situations & experiences - which of course is the point of mumsnet & a great thing - but this particular issue of working/mums/childcare is a big one because it will have long term outcomes on society. It’s not really about what we are each doing today in this context and whether it’s better or worse for us/our kids, it’s about what it all means in the bigger picture. And the truth is that two working parents in todays times means a lower birth rate. That’s bad news long term for the whole of society. x

There’s a huge number of jobs that can’t be done between 10 and 4 or ‘on the Internet’. Virtually every job that’s of significant value to society can’t be done that way.

My husband and I resuscitate people, including children, for a living. Funnily enough nobody seems to think our kid is doing ‘too long a day’ when we’re there saving your kid’s life. People are on board with us not dialing it in from home.

I can’t think of an emergency dept or ICU I’ve worked in that could even be half-staffed without parents working the kind of hours that make paid childcare essential.

This is the main reason that my husband (40) and I (38) aren't having kids.
We've always been on the fence and never had any overwhelming desire, but could certainly be swayed with the right circumstances.
But we've observed so many others do it - raise one or two kids, whilst working full time, without the luxury of family help, and it just looks too hard.
School hours of 9-3, and all of those school holidays to cover?! It's not that it's IMPOSSIBLE, but it creates a life that is expensive, busy, stressful and full of compromise and guilt.

My DD primary school finishes at 3pm as does every single primary school in this area and tbh my sister s area.

I agree - and it's only from 5yrs old.... kids younger than this may go to nursery from 8am-6pm without an issue!

My DD primary school finishes at 3pm as does every single primary school in this area and tbh my sister s area.

Well the good (?) news is the govt has published a paper saying schools need to be open for 32.5 hours, ie 9-3.30, by 2023. It also states most schools are already open for this number of hours.

The rhetoric that suggests after school club or other childcare is somehow bad for the poor tired children just boils down to patriarchal misogyny. My DC beg to be allowed to stay longer at afterschool club, and it’s not just my little weirdos I know other kids at the school do the same.

if the provision is good- and I do agree the provision isn’t always good- there is no guilt or shame attached.

Pregnant then screwed on Instagram is trying to change the childcare situation in this country. They've already made great progress with this government. Please go and support them if you want to see change!

Presumably they’re asking all parents, not just you? Just because people work full time it doesn’t mean they can’t occasionally rearrange their schedule to fit in the odd school trip. I don’t understand why you feel so offended by being asked.

@AppleKatie its not about the rhetoric being good or bad - it’s the wider picture that’s important rather than individual families’ choices. It’s the fact that two working parents and children in childcare 40+ hours a week doesn’t inspire people to have kids and the declining birth rate is a real problem for all of us x

I think the cost of childcare is outrageous. When my 2 needed childcare it was costing me £800 a month. This was way more than my mortgage (and a fair few years ago). But when you look at it sensibly, they are your most precious things, so you wouldn't want to be paying minimum wage for someone to look after your dc. I think it needs to be subsidised somehow. I used to be able to claim 70% of all childcare costs back, which I think should be available to everyone.

@sjxoxo you’re half right. Change the rhetoric, fund childcare appropriately and you will find there is less of an issue with birth rate.

i think part of the problem is that when young I was sold that I could have it all. I’d work hard, go to university, get a good degree, get a private sector job (9-5) that paid well and I enjoyed and also have a family. But the reality is that although my kids could have done 8-6 in nursery 5 days a week and then wrap round care at primary school 5 days a week 8-6 I didn’t feel comfortable with it for lots of reasons, I’m sure they could have coped but for me and them I was lucky to be able to go part time. My wage was lower than my husbands.
But of course my career has stalled, I just got a promotion which took me 8 years whereas my young male colleague got it in 3 (appreciate there are other factors but my 2 years out for Mat leave and 3 days a week must have contributed). So you can’t have it all, some compromises have to happen. I am very grateful for the wrap around care which for the 3 days they are there my Dd really enjoys. I don’t know how we’d cope without it.

Nice, a great site and hopefully something that will help change things for the better. Here's the link for easy access: pregnantthenscrewed.com/

our school finishes at 3pm and after school club is £17 a day which is until 5.30pm. Totally unaffordable to most families with more than one child/ needing a few days.

however I agree that it’s the working hours of parents that should be more flexible, not the expectation that kids should do 10 hour days. I don’t want to/ wouldn’t cope well with 10 hour days 5 days a week, so wouldn’t expect young children too.

we’ve always worked full time ish. Husband more than 40 hours, me around 4 days a week on average usually doing 5 days but slightly shorter days to pick them up most of the week.

It's this 100%

I have a daughter and it makes me angry thinking about how we'll plough just as much energy into her education and access to life experiences as her brother but essentially she'll be expected to be fine with either giving that (mostly) up once (if) she has kids or be fine with farming her kids out to childcare round the clock. I exaggerate to make my point and of course her partner could be the breadwinner etc but you get my point.

contraceptive failures / rape aside I can’t understand why you would choose to have a child / children if you can’t afford to spend time with them. I will never send my children to anything more than they are currently doing because of someone like you. @Greywall2

We don't tend to keep a spreadsheet of who works which days, and given that we can't do trips without parent helpers it's not unreasonable to ask for help. You never know who might be available and I have had some parents voluntarily take a day's leave to join on a trip they were interested in.

Nothing to do with the OP and really not hard for you to just ignore the request.

What irks me about our school wrap around is that during covid they changed their closing time from 6pm to 5:30pm (kept the price the same though!)

That's all well and good if you don't work far away or can drive there in time but I get the bus which takes longer than that and DP finishes at 5 and it takes 35 minutes to get to the school if there isn't any traffic. Why close at half 5 when loads of parents won't be able to get there in time?!

I was fortunate to get my son into a before school breakfast club and an afternoon club at the school. But the hours were limited which had a big impact on where I was able to work and the hours I could do.
In my case, I was a single parent so always had to do both drop off and pick up so no option to be able to start work earlier or work later. It did have an impact on my earnings and the quality of life we had. Whilst I wouldn't have wanted him to have to stay in childcare for much longer hours just a half hour earlier start or later finish could have made an enormous difference.

Our primary school finished at 2:10 (1:10 for the 2 reception aged classes). The PTA always had an after school club to cover the hour between younger and older DCs finishing, and once they got premises, expanded that to cover all years until 6pm. With a school start time of 8:40.

I know we were incredibly lucky to have that. The first 3 years, Dd was collected by a local Creche that ran an ASC at the end if school, then she moved to the in-school ASC as she could do extra-curriculars in school and go to ASC after that. There were a range of ECAs available 4 afternoons a week, and religious classes (multi-denomination school) were facilitated on the 5th. You booked and paid for those in Sep and Feb in advance, paid ASC monthly in arrears.

But our PTA was incredible.

How on earth would a primary teacher be able to have a flexible timetable? There’s a lot of pie in the sky thinking here.

"I will never send my children to anything more than they are currently doing because of someone like you"

@MrsPear you don't have to. No-one is forcing you to have kids and send them to wraparound care, least of all 'someone like me'.

If having children was reserved only for people who could prove they had enough money to raise a child, pay for food and accommodation for 18 years, the human race would die out.

The only way to do it is to make it mandatory for schools to provide some kind of wraparound care.

I was very lucky to have that - crucial as a single parent - but I know not all parents are able to access it.

Childcare provision in this country is utterly woeful.