To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

Meh. It looks as though you're saying that if we don't believe in some version of a higher power (sky fairy, whatever you want to call her) then we will descend into a morass of antisocial behaviour?

Really?

No. You can have your religions, as long as they don't a) interfere with anyone who doesn't follow that religion and b) never ever interferes with the running of the state and c) is fully accountable to the law for all issues

The idea that we need some higher power to hold our baser instincts in check might suit the higher ups in most religions, mostly patriarchal, in order to garner themselves more power. But they can do one.

I don't believe that people need God to behave ethically. I do believe that religious faith and practice can provide comfort and meaning, a sense of one's life and oneself in relation to others, community and structure.

I think some of the problems in modern life- atomised, consumer-focused societies made up of individuals, too many of whom feel lost, lonely and alienated- stem from the fact that we've lost a lot of the benefits of religious practice and belief and not found a secular way to replace them. This isn't an argument for a return to organised religion (which of course also brought harms) and it certainly isn't an argument for the existence of God. But we should try, as a society, to recognise the benefits that religious practice can bring and recreate those in a secular way, to help people live meaningful, cohesive and connected lives.

I quite envy people who have a faith - I think it would be good for mental health to pray to some powerful deity , ask for support, enlightenment with everyday life.

But how well is civilisation going? Are we better or worse off as a species for being civilised?

Sure, there are certain protections from society - provided that you're at a certain strata of it. But I deal with those for whom civilisation is, to be frank, a drawback. They don't have money to learn, to enjoy the products of civilisation, and whilst they may live longer on average than in the wild, they don't live healthy lives.

They would be better off hunting and gathering than living lives at the shitty end of civilisation, full of obstacles, poor nutrition, minimum wages etc.

Yes I feel the same way. The meaning of life is life itself, a fleeting gift you were lucky enough to exist in. I believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated because that's fair and I Like people. I've never done something nice for or helped someone out because I think there's a higher power watching over me from the sky, I do it because sometime I might need some help and being nice to other people feels good and is generally beneficial to society if we try to help each other out

Sadly being religious provides no guarantee that society will act kindly or fairly. Because as the Bible argues people will always be tempted to evil and act in their own interests inside and outside religion (didn't Jesus have to banish traders from the temple?).

Sadly very few religious people practice what they preach but instead choose to use religion to judge, deprive others outside, reinforce hierarchy and misogyny. Too many fatwas, wars and murders, inquisitions, unfair taxes, abuse of women and children, forced adoption and hypocrisy has happened within religion to see any ideals that they espouse not better instituted outside their confines. Democracy, human rights and rule of law are better principles and personal morality are better guiding principles.

I can see how the early Roman Catholic church was guilty of point one. But that, Protestantism came about as a result of RC accumulating wealth through faith.

So, it's not straightforward.

I do think religion and ruling powers were connected. But the story of Jesus, for example, flew in the face of that because he was an underdog born into poverty and a commoner. It suggests there's something more than accumulating wealth and power - because Jesus didn't accumulate wealth and his power appears to have come through being resurrected. Like, you can't buy a resurrection...

I think those religious leaders used the Father and Mother bit as a clever marketing tool 😂 I don't need extra parents especially as an adult thanks!

I'm an atheist. I'm a good person without the threat of existential punishment. I don't need a grand narrative about purpose and redemption to understand my place in the world, failure and forgiveness.

I achieved all this quietly. Answers can be found in nature, relationships, personal awareness, history, art, storytelling, robust debate but crucially the pain, grief and joy that comes from just moving through your life.

I think pragmatism is the best tool in life. It requires observation, learning and application. I think religion is a poor and passive substitute.

Every person that I’ve met who has good attributes such as being kind, decent, caring, considerate, respectful, integrity, love, etc. is a person who has empathy. And this is regardless of whether they have faith in God or a religion or spiritual beliefs or not (atheism).

On the other hand, every person that I have met who has had bad attributes such as being nasty, cruel, indecent, selfish, uncaring, inconsiderate, disrespectful, dishonest, hate etc. is a person who lacks to some degree or completely devoid of empathy. And this is regardless of whether they have faith in God or a religion or spiritual beliefs or not (atheism).

Empathy is what we actually need.

I have not read all the thread so apologies if I’m repeating someone.
I’ve been reading the book Sapiens.
Its fascinating.
It basically says that common beliefs are essential for holding together groups of people larger than about 100. Humans can’t keep social connections with 1000s of people without some common beliefs. Historically this has often been in ‘gods’ of varying kinds. In western civilisations it now often a belief in democracy or capitalism etc.. nearly all societal structures are abstract things that we have created. Without them you can’t control large number of people and have them all living in peace together.
Most human behaviour is influenced by fear - of judgement or consequences. Or hope for some kind of gain.

The ‘historical abuse’ argument that gets trotted out on threads like these but seems like a smack in the face to people of faith who are actually doing really good things for others.

To be brutally honest? If the people who belong to those religions spent more time cleaning them up and holding the paedophiles and misogynists to account and getting rid of them (in the direction of the law) then I'd have more interest in hearing about their good works.

All those people who turn a blind eye to paedophile priests? and the mother & baby homes? I hope they rot in the hell they so clearly believe in. For eternity.

If it comes to taking an oath to tell the truth in court? well, we do know that even having sworn on a bible* people still commit perjury so I'm not sure what the point is. I am more inclined to believe someone who isn't known as a liar, say a schoolteacher of good repute, who doesn't swear on a holy book over, say, the person who does the church flowers and worships the ground a priest walks on (especially in the trial of said priest for child abuse). It's all swings and roundabouts.

*other religious tomes are available

The story of Jesus is a nice idea OP.

It has long since been replaced by abuse, murder, dead babies in septic tanks, the subjugation of women and on and on and on.

I'm from Ireland. I know many deeply religious people, but few christians.

I’m an atheist and thank .. well, pure chance I suppose since I don’t believe in anything.. or my life in a rural, still God-filled, small market town in Italy.

Because it seems that the “dumb old fashioned thing that nobody needs now” I looked down upon is a really great repellant against new tangled ideologies and their Zealots.

At least with a long established religion like Catholicism the “Burn Heretic !” phase is largely out of fashion.

It’s also amazing for me (think less broken home, more like “left coughing on the dust and trapped under the rubble” home) to see so many intact and “good enough” families. It means lots of hands on deck to rally around when the occasional marriage collapse happens. Everybody understand why the kids will need extra support and a parent suddenly left alone can’t deal with her grief and all the other shit suddenly on her plate, all by herself.

I occasionally go to mass because seeing so many people get so much comfort, community and “meaning of life” from their faith feels good. I’ve come a long way from being rather freaked out when DH spent his first night with me and prayed before sleeping 😬

YOU might need the idea of some ultimate authority that will punish you if you do wrong but A LOT of people just have empathy. Superstitious gumpf just holds back society and gets manipulated to create us vs them bullshit.

b) never ever interferes with the running of the state

I don't know how to break this to you, but the Head of State is also the Head of the Church of England. Make of that what you will.

"The idea that we need some higher power to hold our baser instincts in check might suit the higher ups in most religions, mostly patriarchal, in order to garner themselves more power."

But it's those in power are the ones who probably need to entertain a higher entity watching them in order to keep them in check. The ones in power are also the ones most likely to be corrupt and lawless by believing they're above the law. Wasn't the balancing of fortunes the job of the Goddess Nemesis in ancient times?

Can I have proof to this sweeping statement?

why We are non-conformists! 😀

I can see that but at the same time, one doesn't need religion as the binding glue and I think that the more that we discover about the universe, the less that the idea of a divine being makes sense and given all the religions out there with different ideas of what their divinity is, it's hard to reconcile all of those different belief structures together to agree on a common deity, so who is right?

I guess that you might be approaching the argument, not so much from the point of view of it being necessary that there is one, agreed supreme being but more that a belief is necessary for societal structure. I think that other methods such as a sense of community or patriotism or nationalism probably replaces that need.

Empathy has its own issues, sadly.

"We think of empathy – the ability to feel the suffering of others for ourselves – as the ultimate source of all good behaviour. But while it inspires care and protection in personal relationships, it has the opposite effect in the wider world. As the latest research in psychology and neuroscience shows, we feel empathy most for those we find attractive and who seem similar to us and not at all for those who are different, distant or anonymous. Empathy therefore biases us in favour of individuals we know while numbing us to the plight of thousands. Guiding us expertly through the experiments, case studies and arguments on all sides, Paul Bloom ultimately shows that some of our worst decisions – in charity, child-raising, criminal justice, climate change and war – are motivated by this wolf in sheep's clothing."

• 'Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion' by Paul Bloom

Do you think generations of faith-based communities may have influenced your moral compass?

Not remotely.

I can see how the early Roman Catholic church was guilty of point one. But that, Protestantism came about as a result of RC accumulating wealth through faith.

The Catholic church still is UpTo it they are rich beyond belief, they have helped spreads of HIV and other diseases in Africa, their so called outreach programs in Africa have probably cost more lives.

The Catholic church helps protect and cover up and move paedo priests to keep carrying out their activities elsewhere.

It is when I read posts like this that I realise that when people cease to be
ieve in God they believe anything

I don't know how to break this to you, but the Head of State is also the Head of the Church of England. Make of that what you will.

Patronising twaddle. You assume that I'm ok with this. I am not.

You're flogging a dead horse OP 😂