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Original poster

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

643 replies

Digita · 29/08/2022 12:13

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

OP posts:
EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 16/02/2023 13:21

I do find the psychological need so many people have to believe in a supreme being fascinating. It's relatively easy to understand how the idea of religion came into being in the first place, not least on the basis that people needed some way of making sense of the incomprehensible.

I've been thinking about this recently in the context of reading about sleep and dreaming and hallucinogenic drugs.

It appears to me that something changed in us, psychologically, however many thousands of years ago, changing how we see and experience the world and meaning the need to use more extreme methods of contacting the otherworld/communing with the gods/shamanic journeying/whatever you want to call it. There's reasonable scientific explanations for these things by the way - most of these hallucinations start with very similar visual phenomena to those many people get with migraines.

So the psychological need is some hang over from that change.

Anyway, just speculation, as of course there are no written records to confirm this.

whumpthereitis · 16/02/2023 14:37

SammyScrounge · 14/02/2023 20:57

G.K Chesterton once said that 'People who.don't.believe in God will believe in anything.'
These days everyone is able to choose their own beliefs or even invent them. They can decide for themselves what is moral or what is not, or even if there is such a thing as meaningful morality.

Take a good look at some of the things people believe in these days.Bizarre ludicrous things abound. People are afraid to challenge the strangest beliefs even when they are harmful to society as a whole.

It seems to me that religion and a broad acceptance of its tenets were a unifying force in society. And there is nothing to replace it.

There is a relatively new theory of the origins.of civilisations. Broadly it used to be thought that hunter gatherers settled down to farming and then built temples to their gods; a new school of thought says the temples and huge religious complexes came first and then people settled there to assist in the running and maintenance of these holy places and priests. And that is how civilisation began.

I have no idea which theory, if either, is correct. But what if religion is the foundation of civilisation? And now that religion has lost its grip on most of us, who will have the moral authority to restrain us?

Personally, I fear the future. Our society is rotten through and through; the media worships depravity, our leaders will not speak out against it.
An example is that idiot who stripped off on TV and played the piano with his penis. That was the moment I realised we're finished as a respected nation. When that man is classed as entertainment, or a satire on society, or an amusing comment on modern art we have lost the plot.

GK Chesterston missed the (glaring) fact that people who don’t believe in god they clearly wouldn’t believe in anything, solely by virtue of the fact they’re sceptical enough that they don’t blindly believe in God/s.

and people doing weird shit with their genitals for public entertainment has been happening for millennia. It’s hardly emblematic of either the irreligious (the inside of the Vatican has seen some sights!) or the downfall of society.

Treesandsheepeverywhere · 20/02/2023 09:14

Hellsmovie · 16/02/2023 13:07

Anyone who needs the threat of eternal hell to be a good person isnt a good person

There are bad and good people who believe in God, same as there are bad and good who dont.

People who are truly bad aren't going to suddenly be good because of a threat of hell.
Just as much as truly good people won't suddenly be bad if they believed there was no heaven.

What brings us together, religion or not, is love, respect, empathy and forgiveness.

What is interesting is how some non-believers suddenly turn to God at their deathbed or when they think they're about to die.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/02/2023 09:30

What is interesting is how some non-believers suddenly turn to God at their deathbed or when they think they're about to die.

Do they? Are such cases more than Pacal's Wager?

I suppose also 'interesting' are people who claim to follow religions yet behave appallingly who end with 'absolution'. It's not at all clear that the Christian doctrine of 'forgiveness of sin' results in people living better lives.

pointythings · 20/02/2023 12:12

What is interesting is how some non-believers suddenly turn to God at their deathbed or when they think they're about to die.

I'd like to see some evidence that this actually happens. Because I think it's another 'there are no atheists in foxholes' tropes that the religious love so much.

It's actually quite offensive to presume that atheists are only atheists when things are going well.

AnnoyedFromSlough · 20/02/2023 12:22

SammyScrounge · 14/02/2023 20:57

G.K Chesterton once said that 'People who.don't.believe in God will believe in anything.'
These days everyone is able to choose their own beliefs or even invent them. They can decide for themselves what is moral or what is not, or even if there is such a thing as meaningful morality.

Take a good look at some of the things people believe in these days.Bizarre ludicrous things abound. People are afraid to challenge the strangest beliefs even when they are harmful to society as a whole.

It seems to me that religion and a broad acceptance of its tenets were a unifying force in society. And there is nothing to replace it.

There is a relatively new theory of the origins.of civilisations. Broadly it used to be thought that hunter gatherers settled down to farming and then built temples to their gods; a new school of thought says the temples and huge religious complexes came first and then people settled there to assist in the running and maintenance of these holy places and priests. And that is how civilisation began.

I have no idea which theory, if either, is correct. But what if religion is the foundation of civilisation? And now that religion has lost its grip on most of us, who will have the moral authority to restrain us?

Personally, I fear the future. Our society is rotten through and through; the media worships depravity, our leaders will not speak out against it.
An example is that idiot who stripped off on TV and played the piano with his penis. That was the moment I realised we're finished as a respected nation. When that man is classed as entertainment, or a satire on society, or an amusing comment on modern art we have lost the plot.

a) it was Emile Cammaerts not GK Chesterton and b) the actual quote is 'When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything', which doesn't mean quite the same.

Treesandsheepeverywhere · 20/02/2023 13:05

pointythings · 20/02/2023 12:12

What is interesting is how some non-believers suddenly turn to God at their deathbed or when they think they're about to die.

I'd like to see some evidence that this actually happens. Because I think it's another 'there are no atheists in foxholes' tropes that the religious love so much.

It's actually quite offensive to presume that atheists are only atheists when things are going well.

Offensive to whom?

some non-believers..... nowhere does it say all aethists.

Why would someone choosing to suddenly believe have cause to be offended and why would an aethist who doesn't believe be offended when they've not suddenly turned into a believer?

People believe in whatever they choose whether things are going good or bad.
If they decide to switch either way, that's their choice too.

pointythings · 20/02/2023 13:22

@Treesandsheepeverywhere I guess it's just that as an atheist, I am tired of being looked down on by the religious. And it happens, I have experienced it myself. Every time I have attended a church service (for weddings, school events etc.) somewhere in the sermon/address there has been mention of the poor atheists, how miserable we must all be because we don't know God. It's disrespectful and presumptuous. By all means extol how happy your community of believers is - that's fine. But don't do it by inserting a sneer at those who do not believe as you do. It's just rude.

There's also the concept that people are only atheists because they haven't experienced hardship. I won't bore you with my life story, but take it from me that it is bullshit. I have been through a more than average number of shitstorms in my life and not once have I felt the urge to look for God. Maybe some people find faith in a crisis and good for them, but the underlying assumption is that you can't get through tough times without God. And that it just not so.

Treesandsheepeverywhere · 20/02/2023 13:49

pointythings · 20/02/2023 13:22

@Treesandsheepeverywhere I guess it's just that as an atheist, I am tired of being looked down on by the religious. And it happens, I have experienced it myself. Every time I have attended a church service (for weddings, school events etc.) somewhere in the sermon/address there has been mention of the poor atheists, how miserable we must all be because we don't know God. It's disrespectful and presumptuous. By all means extol how happy your community of believers is - that's fine. But don't do it by inserting a sneer at those who do not believe as you do. It's just rude.

There's also the concept that people are only atheists because they haven't experienced hardship. I won't bore you with my life story, but take it from me that it is bullshit. I have been through a more than average number of shitstorms in my life and not once have I felt the urge to look for God. Maybe some people find faith in a crisis and good for them, but the underlying assumption is that you can't get through tough times without God. And that it just not so.

I absolutely don't agree with what you've come across in the Churches you've been to.
Live and let live is what I go by.

The cases of aethists turning to God is from experience as I have a lot of nurses in the family who have witnessed it. Hence the word some as it's not all aethists as said before.

Who knows, there may be people who denounce their religion at their deathbed but I haven't come across it.

The argument is both ways as seen in this thread, religious people insulting aethists and the other way round.

It's as much as vegans being offended by meat eaters and wanting to change them yet you hardly get meat eaters who want to turn vegans.

It's a choice and each choice should be respected.

I have friends, family and collegues with different beliefs and luckily, we manage to respect each other's choices.

Unfortunatelythere are people who believe their way is the right way and never willing to accept that we're all different.

They'll always be someone who doesn't approve of others choices, but that's on them.

postapesto · 12/04/2023 12:34

Digita · 29/08/2022 12:29

But moral compasses, right and wrong, vary from person to person and situation to situation.

Do you think generations of faith-based communities may have influenced your moral compass?

Show quote history

Yes. They should do. That's what makes them a moral compass.

bossonext · 12/04/2023 13:21

L353A1 · 12/04/2023 12:32

There is evidence that jurors who are religious attach less weight to the credibility of witnesses who affirm instead of swearing an oath to a God.

https://humanists.uk/2023/04/04/call-for-end-to-oaths-in-court-as-study-finds-jurors-biased-against-the-non-religious/

That's disgusting. Blatantly discrimination.

pointythings · 12/04/2023 13:23

L353A1 · 12/04/2023 12:32

There is evidence that jurors who are religious attach less weight to the credibility of witnesses who affirm instead of swearing an oath to a God.

https://humanists.uk/2023/04/04/call-for-end-to-oaths-in-court-as-study-finds-jurors-biased-against-the-non-religious/

Well, that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency then. If religious belief is causing miscarriages of justice (and this will go both ways too, with guilty people being found not guilty because they are perceived to be religious) then religious swearing needs to be abolished.

I wish I could say I was surprised at this, but I'm not.

user1478172746 · 12/04/2023 13:36

The spread of civilisation - and it was not a good thing. Subjugation of women, slave labor, violence, cruelty, lower quality of life (living with animals in shacks, less diverse food, worse health, spread of diseases) - just so the emperors would become richer and more powerful. Spread of civilisations often meant wars. Of course fear of cruel divine beings helped to keep people in this state. There has to be a better way.

Againstmachine · 12/04/2023 17:55

L353A1 · 12/04/2023 12:32

There is evidence that jurors who are religious attach less weight to the credibility of witnesses who affirm instead of swearing an oath to a God.

https://humanists.uk/2023/04/04/call-for-end-to-oaths-in-court-as-study-finds-jurors-biased-against-the-non-religious/

Just goes to show how dumb the jurors are, guess what the religious have lied for millennias

maddy68 · 12/04/2023 20:53

Religion is the basis of all conflict

It's toxic

TooBigForMyBoots · 12/04/2023 23:08

maddy68 · 12/04/2023 20:53

Religion is the basis of all conflict

It's toxic

No it isn't. That is a factually incorrect statement.

Bouledeneige · 13/04/2023 23:48

We have the capacity to set our own moral standards and live with integrity - many of which coincide with religious tenets - but which have the benefit of not involving judgement, punishment, going to hell, division/inequity/conflict, institutional hypocrisy, abuse of power and moral superiority.

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