To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

So much evil is carried out in the name of science and politics. Do we abandon science and politics?

The discussion isn't about religion on an individual basis, it's about religion as an organisation. In every organisation there will be individuals who are decent, moderate people and who don't agree with everything their religion teaches or practices however these organisations as a whole are harmful and they have been/are currently responsible for untold atrocities from relatively small-scale bigotry and intolerance right the way up the scale to genocide.

That is demonstrably untrue @TheyreOnlyNoodlesMichael. Greed for money and power are the root of what ails humanity.

The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

well, they've also added options for those who don't believe in god so that's hardly a great example.

swearing on a bible would have no psychological or moral force for me.

The concept of morality was around long before religion so YABU.

No-one needs a God but we do need morality.

Should is the keyword there.

But the suggestion is that should is not how all people work when they have a choice to do otherwise.

It's not how all people work when they believe in a god either.

The decline in religiosity of societies (natural decline in liberal democracies, not enforced dogmatic regimes) seems to correlate with the development of effective policing and criminal justice systems on the one hand, and social services/medicine on the other.

Men invented gods, but we have other options.

To be fair OP though, I am atheist and I still think I am a decent human being. I don't think my following a religion would change my moral compass or ethics.

people with nasty intent, war, abuse, mistreatment of children and women , violence, death, all stem from religion and religion at its worst

I often think bad people use it and abuse it, good souls needing something to believe are always the losers
I don't think religion is good but feel more narcissists and religious leaders need their abuse and behaviours curbing by better laws and better insight and transparency

TooMuchToDoTooLittleInclination · Today 12:24
“Oh do go away & take your links with you.“

this ^

religion always has and continues to inflict untold damage.

So basically, humans are as a species so fundamentally awful and without decency and morals that the only thing that would stop people from raping, murdering, stealing, abusing etc would be fear of eternal damnation?

I don't actually disagree with you about the state of mankind. We are a pretty awful, savage, selfish animal.

I just don't think fear of God would make much difference.

People still commit crimes when the punishment is life imprisonment and even when it's death.

People generally never truly accept their own mortality so the idea of being good in life so you don't get tortured for eternity just isn't going to work.

You can't get people to stop smoking, drinking, taking drugs because death is something that happens to other people.

Then of course you have to address the countless evils done in the so called name of God. So much torture, murder, and so on has been done through history by people claiming to be acting in god's name.

Also, how good are you if the only thing stopping you from doing bad things is fear for yourself and not a desire to do good for goods sake and without expectation of personal gain?

Even if people genuinely believed that they would be struck down by a thunderbolt for going against the teachings of X god, it would only be beneficial to society if X god’s teachings, as reported by their human representatives, benefited society. If a god’s teachings are that you should harm none, even the unbelievers, great. If they’re that you only need to treat someone with respect if they follow those teachings, not so great.

The power of religious leaders in communities, from the village holy man to (historically) the Christian Churches, and the willingness of people to police each other when it comes to religious adherence probably has a lot more to do with keeping order than actual belief. Tyranny is order too.

Having lived for years in the US, I’ve seen exactly how obsession with religion affects a society. It’s not good. Some of the most god-fearing people I met there were the worst, most bigoted, judgmental, prejudiced people you could ever have the misfortune to encounter. Just look at the GOP.

Some religious people do charitable work, but many do it for the purposes of indoctrinating others. Look at all the harm missionaries did the world over, decimating other people’s cultures. Just as many humanists or people of no faith quietly serve others with no agenda.

I have both a family member and a dear friend who are ordained people, and they are kind, giving and tolerant. But they seem to be the exception, rather than the rule.

Science doesn't tend to have masses of followers killing people in their thousands not conforming to one particular branch of science. The round Earth believers don't go out with their army to enslave the Flat Earthers, rape their woman, steal their children, force them to convert, take their lands, and so on. Geologists don't come knocking at your door with a copy of Rocks Monthly asking if you can spare five minutes to talk about stones. Chemists don't hate gay people, they don't force unwed mothers into group homes, and they don't preach sin while covering up decades of organised child abuse.

As for politics, depends on the country and the political system really and people in democratic countries at least get a say in which politicians are leading them via fair elections. Not so for religion.

Yep, I have managed to be a good person without the guidance of an imaginary being so far.

I couldn’t have put it better myself!

People who espouse this seem to have a rather "pick and choose" attitude towards religion. It's essentially a cry for "why can't we all just be nice to each other", but with the unfortunate effect that it gives credence to institutions that have been hugely controlling, damaging, and are based on beliefs largely anathema to scientific understanding or basic common sense.

yes but would you want the morality of the Roman Empire ?

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg

Neither do I, but we might find millions did, if there was no belief in gods. Meant to vote YANBU, apologies OP.

I believe Jacob Stalin, Mao and Pol Pit believed that too!

Didn't they worship a shitload of gods?

I wondered about this: is it fair? Do an oath and affirmation carry the same weight in reality? In theory, both an oath and affirmation should be equal. But does everyone else witnessing feel the same way?

For example.

One is claiming to declare the truth before a 'higher being' witness who (in theory) they believe has the power to punish them if they are telling lies (a deterrent).

The other is claiming to tell the truth without any concept of another 'higher being' or a 'deterrant'.

Interesting fact that around 200,000 people were killed by the first atomic bombs. 50 million killed before in the Second World War by high explosives invented by scientists. 100 million estimated to have died in the attempted propagation of the doctrines of Karl Marx.