To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

I would say most are somewhat dodgy now and in the past. I’m a Sikh, there are regular problems in Amritsar due to separatist violence.

It’s not like the Christian god didn’t spend the entirety of the time detailed in the Old Testament being a complete arsehole though, is it?

I don't like the idea that is pushed that if there was no "god/gods" that people would be morally bankrupt animals

Again this is bullshit. Seriously it's like posters on this thread missed the 20th century and are spectacularly unaware of what is happening in the world now.🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

So why don’t you live in North Korea?

This has got to be one of daftest statements on on here. Why would anyone want to live there as it's a corrupt mess which borders on religion for the leaders. This is about religion other ideologies are are also corrup.

Me I've managed not to kill, maim, start anywars etc whilst also being a athiest.

@ErrolTheDragon "It's notable that Buddhism isn't theistic."

Might be worth a look so 😘

There's a well known quote
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

Actually, I think that makes too much of a special case of religion. 'Good people' (and certainly people who think they're good/want others to think they're good') can also do evil if they're part of various non-religious political movements.

I meant 😀

Ffs 😂

That should is the ideal.

The research suggests people don't do as they should but rather as they want. Human selfishness trumps the things that should happen.

Like what you said in your last paragraph. Very accurate that climate change fears haven't changed behaviour. I wonder if it's because some people think climate change won't affect them personally because it seems way in the future and they won't be around anymore?

Xpost with that quote.
Maybe it's believing in any dogma without critical evaluation which is a lot of the problem? And/or if there are mechanisms to indoctrinate/coerce people into those beliefs?

North Korea does have a form of religion: basically the ancient religion of Emperor Worship, where the - hereditary - Dear Leader gets treated like a god.

In many regimes, the state ideology -Fascism, Communism, nationalism- becomes a sort of religion, and the leader is treated as godlike. Mao's Little Red Book was treated like a religious text.

The American Christian Right deprive women of reproductive rights in the name of religion. Atheist Ceaucescu of Romania did so in the name of nationalism.

So sadly I don't think that an abolition of formal religion would end authoritarianism or violent conflict; some people will always find ways to use any ideology in the cause of authoritarianism and cruelty. But formal religion certainly doesn't prevent it and often exacerbates it. Look at what's happening with the Taliban.

Christian and it's a choice. I don't try and convert people and luckily haven't come across anyone who tries to discourage me from being one.
Live and let live.

Nah, Jacob Stalin was Josef’s brother. Strong family resemblance, so an easy mistake to make. I’ve heard he preferred organic farming over dictatorship though.

Relgioin was stamped out in the Soviet Union because it was intrinsically tied to the Tsarist regime (incidentally, not a paragon of human rights either). Targeting the Orthodox Church removed the opposition. Being the opposition is not the same thing as being ‘good’, however, when it’s two shit options battling it out.

But doesn't the idea of 'gods' come back to the hierarchy of parents?

Do you also not like the idea that if there were no parents, then children would be morally bankrupt animals?

"God Is Watching You: How the Fear of God Makes Us Human" by Dominic Johnson is an interesting book:

'He shows that belief in supernatural reward and punishment is no quirk of western or Christian culture, but a ubiquitous part of human nature that spans geographical regions, cultures, and human history.'

Overt religiosity in society hasn’t been typified by peace, throughout history. Most of the battles religions have been involved in have not been against atheism, but against different denominations within the same religion, and against other religions.

Secularism, on the other hand, has coincided with, and driven, an era that placed a much greater emphasis on human rights and personal liberty.

At one time I would have agreed with you about Buddhism, but look at what's been happening in Burma/ Myanmar.

All religions and ideologies get misused in horrible ways by authoritarian governments.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the argument. I'm all for people having belief if it helps them but you are conflating countries with a lack of democracy who also officially looked down on religion with people who don't have a faith. No-one is looking to ban religion in the UK, it's about whether they have faith. I have a right not to have a faith or belief. In point of fact though, North Korea's ruling family are practically treated as a divinity anyway.

People don't even need that. As Stanley Milgram showed, they just need to be asked to do it. The Stanford Prison Experiment demonstrated that people didn't even need to be told to inflict cruelty and damage in order to do it.🤷‍♀️

It pisses me off when people quote their trite "religion is cause of all evil" bullshit.😡 It shows we have learnt nothing.

I'm not sure how you can make a comparison like that and expect me to see them as equal. Every child has parents we know this as a biological reality, gods are something know one actually knows exist are not, an imaginary force. An imaginary force that humans speak/spoke for.

A baby needs an adult in it's life when it's born or it will literally die, it needs to be taught everything by an adult, that's usually it's parents. So no, I don't see the two as similar at all

@Digita

'He shows that belief in supernatural reward and punishment is no quirk of western or Christian culture, but a ubiquitous part of human nature that spans geographical regions, cultures, and human history.'

Surely all it points to is the ubiquitous need in human nature for a reason or meaning for their existence, and some comfort that it's not just a pure accident.

I just think religion has two purposes:

1.) Keeping the population in check to accumulate wealth & power
2.) Beeing some sort moral compass for the whole purpose of point one.

Thats why historically you either have rulers put in place by the leaders of the local religion or said leaders are also part of the ruling powers.

In secularism isn't there also risks of games being played over human rights and personal liberty?

Example: Tory leadership ex-candidate and Attorney General Suella Braverman said she would ‘eliminate’ the human right to protection from torture and inhuman treatment. www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/tory-leadership-candidate-suella-braverman-torture-human-rights-b2124323.html

People don't all agree on human rights and personal liberty.

The idea of gods is far more likely to have been in response to answering unanswerable questions (at least historically). The changing of the seasons before we understood the motion of the planet and proximity to the sun - the gods are responsible. The different levels of emotions in people - love, war, caring etc. the gods are responsible. How all creatures live and have energy but different to humans - the gods. Your basis appears very focused on only a few belief codes. Many did not have a fair and just god to balance the scales of justice but had petty, jealous and unpredictable gods who may punish you if you caught their eye. People have free will and even with the threat of divine retribution don’t act how they Should. So to prove god has a positive impact you would need to test two identical sets of people one with a coded belief and one without. That is unlikely to be possible.

Not for me personally. I have no expectation of anything beyond my current lifespan or any sort of divine retribution. I don't believe that there is any grand plan - we just happen to exist because the conditions for life were right. That being said, I do have a strong sense of 'do as you would be done by' and not wanting to hurt others (I am not infallible but I try). If that is humanism then I guess that's what I am.

I was trying to say the idea of 'parents' in childhood plays into religion too. 'God the father' is very purposeful, and I can see how it can appeal to the inner child of an adult who feels the need for a parent figure. 'Mary the mother' figure too.