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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

643 replies

Digita · 29/08/2022 12:13

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

OP posts:
DragonflyNights · 29/08/2022 14:06

Then again, this study has shown that toddlers show altruism (so they claim). And they are not likely to have much fear of a vengeful god yet.

www.washington.edu/news/2020/02/04/altruistic-babies-study-shows-infants-are-willing-to-give-up-food-help-others/

KangarooKenny · 29/08/2022 14:06

I personally think that god and the commandments were devised to bring law and rules to a lawless society.
There are many of the commandments that people could do with adhering to these days.

Carpy88999 · 29/08/2022 14:08

If the only reason people are good is because they fear supernatural consequences for misdeads they're not really good people at all imo.

LemonSwan · 29/08/2022 14:09

I get what you are saying OP. I am not practicing in any religion but I do keep a bible in the house.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable lieing with my hand on a bible.

It’s a bit like a horse shoe isn’t it. Why keep it the wrong way round? Is it worth the risk 🤷‍♀️

goherbie · 29/08/2022 14:10

No I don't think it's unwise to lose the sense of God in society. It's hard to judge religion, because religion is always found in a cultural context that defines it.

However, if I were forced to pick a religion, on ethical grounds the religion I would argue teaches the kindest / nicest morality, to me is Buddhism. Whilst not being entirely atheistic, it does acknowledge the existence of gods, but considers them largely to be an irrelevance (see the Buddha's teaching of the poisoned arrow).

Of course, Buddhism is not without its issues too, the situation in Myanmar and the issue of female bhikkunis show that misogyny is alive and well in all cultures. But again, it is difficult to disentangle religion from culture.

But, simply put, to me the superiority of Buddhist ethics over Christian / Jewish / Muslim ethics amply shows that belief in God is not necessary for a sound ethical system.

TitoMojito · 29/08/2022 14:10

I wondered about this: is it fair? Do an oath and affirmation carry the same weight in reality? In theory, both an oath and affirmation should be equal. But does everyone else witnessing feel the same way?

For example.

One is claiming to declare the truth before a 'higher being' witness who (in theory) they believe has the power to punish them if they are telling lies (a deterrent).

The other is claiming to tell the truth without any concept of another 'higher being' or a 'deterrant'

The higher power/deterrent in this situation is prosecution for perjury.

AryaStarkWolf · 29/08/2022 14:11

LemonSwan · 29/08/2022 14:09

I get what you are saying OP. I am not practicing in any religion but I do keep a bible in the house.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable lieing with my hand on a bible.

It’s a bit like a horse shoe isn’t it. Why keep it the wrong way round? Is it worth the risk 🤷‍♀️

I try not to lie anyway but having a bible in my hand would certainly not make me less likely to 😂

Elphame · 29/08/2022 14:13

I don't need to be treated like a naughty child to know the difference between right and wrong.

The sooner the English church is dis-established the better as far as I'm concerned.

Organised religion is directly responsible for millions of deaths and people are still being killed in its name.

AhNowTed · 29/08/2022 14:13

TitoMojito · 29/08/2022 14:05

Do you think generations of faith-based communities may have influenced your moral compass?

Not remotely.

No, me neither.

ErrolTheDragon · 29/08/2022 14:14

LemonSwan · 29/08/2022 14:09

I get what you are saying OP. I am not practicing in any religion but I do keep a bible in the house.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable lieing with my hand on a bible.

It’s a bit like a horse shoe isn’t it. Why keep it the wrong way round? Is it worth the risk 🤷‍♀️

That's just superstition though, isn't it?

mamabear715 · 29/08/2022 14:14

I'm Christian, & spiritual, but kinda follow my own path.
To me, Johnny 5, the robot in Short Circuit movie sums it up best. :-)

Newton Crosby 'Why did you disobey your programme?'
Number Five 'Programme say to kill, to disassemble, to make dead. Number Five cannot.'
Newton Crosby 'Why 'cannot'?'
Number Five 'Is WRONG! Newton Crosby, Ph.D, not KNOW this?'
Newton Crosby 'Of course I know it's wrong to ill, but who told you?
Number Five 'I told me..'

Love it.

mamabear715 · 29/08/2022 14:14

*Kill, not ill!

Againstmachine · 29/08/2022 14:15

Having watched love ones die from cancer, dementia and other things.

I'd say if good exists god should be considered disgusting and shouldn't be worshiped at all.

Thingstodotoday · 29/08/2022 14:17

Malie · 29/08/2022 12:28

Go to North Korea. You will find Utopia there.

@Malie do you need some help understanding the term “most”?
It’s not hard to feel intellectually superior when this is the quality of the counterarguments!

GeekyThings · 29/08/2022 14:19

I think this thread is ignoring the correlation between religion and unsuccessful societies due to economic inequality. Basically the more wealthy a society is, with the wealth spread out further across the population, the less religious that society tends to be. Because religion, to an extent, is a psychological coping mechanism - the more anxious you are about your daily life, the more likely it will be that you will look to find something, or someone, to help ease that burden.

So, really, the only reason that I can see for wanting to retain a religion in order to keep society stable would be if you prefer society to be unequal and to have large portions of it living in poverty. In those instances religion can be a useful tool to keep the peace in groups of people living under stressful circumstances. But even that isn't surefire, and actually many of the more religious areas of the world are also very dangerous places to live in general, so clearly it isn't a perfect strategy by a long stretch!

If the aim is to keep society stable and peaceful, really religion isn't the thing to be concentrating on, or even concerned with - it's wealth, and more particularly getting rid of wealth inequality. Religion will probably dissipate along with the wealth gap, but society on the whole won't need it because people will be happier, and happier people don't need as much of a crutch to just get on with the day.

It reminds me of a comedian I saw once who pointed out - you never hear of someone finding god when everything's going well for them; you'll hear someone say 'my dog died, my car blew up, I lost my job and my house, but I've found god, so that's ok'; but it's much less likely you'll ever hear 'i got married, got my dream job, won the lottery, oh, and I also found god'!

AhNowTed · 29/08/2022 14:19

I was brought up in a faith school, Sunday school every week.

I knew it was twaddle before I left primary.

I remember vividly the bit of the bible that said humans have the power over all other living creatures. Even as a 5 year old I thought hang on that's not right.

ErrolTheDragon · 29/08/2022 14:20

TitoMojito · 29/08/2022 14:10

I wondered about this: is it fair? Do an oath and affirmation carry the same weight in reality? In theory, both an oath and affirmation should be equal. But does everyone else witnessing feel the same way?

For example.

One is claiming to declare the truth before a 'higher being' witness who (in theory) they believe has the power to punish them if they are telling lies (a deterrent).

The other is claiming to tell the truth without any concept of another 'higher being' or a 'deterrant'

The higher power/deterrent in this situation is prosecution for perjury.

If I was on a jury, my inclination would be to give more weight to the affirmer - as it's not the default option it implies they've thought about it, not just mouthing the words. And swearing on a centuries old book (which if you've studied it with any seriousness you know is not remotely self-consistent let alone 'the truth') doesn't incline me to think that person is necessarily a good judge of reliable evidence.

Malie · 29/08/2022 14:23

Thingstodotoday · 29/08/2022 14:17

@Malie do you need some help understanding the term “most”?
It’s not hard to feel intellectually superior when this is the quality of the counterarguments!

Frankly this is all the argument that was needed.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 29/08/2022 14:24

is it fair? Do an oath and affirmation carry the same weight in reality?

Depends what you mean by reality, and weight as perceived by whom, I suppose.

My affirmation that I am telling the truth is serious and carries more weight for me than my swearing on the bible would for me. The latter would feel dishonest, as though I was crossing my fingers behind my back.

I suppose a religious observer might prefer me to swear on a bible for superstitious reasons.

Intruiged · 29/08/2022 14:26

Norse, Roman and Greek gods may have been an attempt explain the world. Modern Abrahamic religions were invented so the people in power could control, use and oppress society, especially the poor and uneducated, and women.

Denying women bodily bodily autonomy( eg, medical care, driving, told how to dress), the American superchurches milking the poor while the pastors are multi millionaires, massacres and wars all in the name of religion.... That's just to name a few.

As an atheist, I know ll those things are wrong.

AhNowTed · 29/08/2022 14:27

Why does anyone need to swear on a bible anyway. Perjury is perjury regardless.

Bodice · 29/08/2022 14:28

But it’s the societies who follow their faiths the most blindly that have the most violence, war, poor treatment of women etc.

Malie · 29/08/2022 14:28

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 29/08/2022 14:24

is it fair? Do an oath and affirmation carry the same weight in reality?

Depends what you mean by reality, and weight as perceived by whom, I suppose.

My affirmation that I am telling the truth is serious and carries more weight for me than my swearing on the bible would for me. The latter would feel dishonest, as though I was crossing my fingers behind my back.

I suppose a religious observer might prefer me to swear on a bible for superstitious reasons.

There has been a lot of talk here but swearing on the Bible is a fundamentally legal thing which puts you on oath. If you don’t feel you can do that you affirm. Christians often affirm as they do not wish to use the name of God in that way.

Marvellousmadness · 29/08/2022 14:33

You are unreasonable. And delusional.
And . . Well.. other things....

Elphame · 29/08/2022 14:35

If I was to swear on the bible it would have no hold on me and I wouldn't feel obliged to tell the truth for that reason alone.

As I'm generally in the habit of being truthful that wouldn't make any difference but don't think for one second that the bible had anything to do with it.