Energy don’t pay or what else

[jetadore]

So the “don’t pay” movement seems to be gaining some traction but so does the “just shut up and pay” movement telling us to stop being so naive and how there are ‘much better ways’ to tackle the issue? What are these ‘better ways’ then? Place my faith in the leadership and benevolence of Liz or Rishi?

I remember people refusing to pay (and rioting) over the poll tax, you hear about protest movements in other countries, what about the yellow vests for fucks sake. Here we’re too scared to do anything in case it affects our precious credit scores, make excuses not to demonstrate because we allowed the government to take away our right to protest.

What am I allowed to do then? Wait for people to start going broke or dying, and then tut over the newspaper headlines? Wait for the next election so we can vote in the same bunch of bastards, or Starmer’s diet bastards? Research and publish my proposal for a coherent, long term energy policy since nobody in government can be bothered? Campaign for world peace? Come up with patronising explanations for how the crisis is due to a complex and unfortunate coincidence of geo-political factors and the prevailing economic doctrine which is actually much better than the alternative when you think about it what are you a socialist or something? How long should I wait and see if things magically get better? Is ofgem going to wait to announce the price cap? No, they’re doing it next month. Just enough time to get onto my bank.

I’m fortunate that I could probably afford the projected (can’t wait for the big reveal, so exciting) increase with a bit of belt tightening. But I’m inclined to cancel my payments all the same, if it would put the shits up them. I don’t want to be all “I’m alright jack” while others struggle, nor do I want to be intimidated by the threat of ccj’s and conservative claptrap, so that the Tories and their mates can sit there laughing at us and blathering on about how profit isn’t a crime whilst we all meekly wring our hands and wait in the cold for the invisible hand of the market to come to our aid.

Just feel like is there something I can practically do to make a difference, now, or am I actually powerless?

PS I know there was a thread on this recently there probably have been others since I didn’t find any when I searched though.

👍🏻 That’s a shame - was naively hoping if France could work out a way to not have an energy crisis there might be something the uk government could do to alleviate the current desperate situation many families find themselves in.

@PasTrop is clearly a troll

So my DD last year was £80 (for both) it then was £160 this year, they asked to put up to £350 as I fixed in July.
I have moved it to £250 for now as I am still in £400 credit, once I get into negative in winter I'll then up it to the amount I actually use each month, I'll just track my smart meters.
I don't mind paying what I use however I then think it will make me think more about my use age and then I will use less and need to pay less ...

It’s irrelevant.

The whole market is affected - not just those who bought from Russia.

We bought very little from Russia but look what’s happening here.

Simple supply and demand, not hard to understand.

There is less gas around in the market for wholesale, so prices have gone up across the board. Basic economics.

Buying or not from Russia doesn’t mean that you aren’t affected because there is less gas available to everyone so wholesalers charge more.

Do people understand that we bought very little from Russia, but look at what is still happening?

Becayse - fairly obviously - if enough people refuse to pay it will force the government to take action - like they did with the poll tax. We are paying far more than most of Europe - we're being taken for mugs because our government is too spineless to stand up to the energy companies.

Similar to what I do. I am with Shell and they let you control your DD

Already a bit out of date after three weeks, but this gives some idea of the global[though Europe seems to be worst hit?] nature of the high electricity prices worldwide?

www.electricrate.com/data-center/electricity-prices-by-country/

Martin Lewis isn’t advising this so if you think he has a point generally I’d take his view on this too

Encouraging people to do this will harm them more than anyone else

So naive!

What’s the government going to do to a wholesaler offshore??

Please tell me.

The only way they can help people is via tax relief or some such support which means we still pay for it, just not directly in the form of bills.

Do people realise that ‘the government should pay’ means that WE pay??

Frances way or working it out was because they predominantly produce energy from nuclear power and the state owns 80% of EDF

Yep, absolutely right.
This too and they appear to be
mor me progressive (or ignorant - depending on your view) along these lines/

Nuclear energy is massively under utilised and we will need to start looking at this.

Hello! If you watch the interviews you can tell Martin Lewis is a bit sheepish as he says this.

Look at his body language etc. He obviously doesn't want to tell people to do something that is effectively illegal, but realistically you know he was thinking "I mean what else can people do, and realistically they can't go after several hundreds of thousands of people at once".

He hasn't mentioned it since, which is telling.

I think the ''just pay'' types are really naive.

• For many people like pensioners, the disabled and those on low incomes that simply won't be an option.
• Also they forget the bigger picture: if people stop being able to consume as normal and stop going to restaurants, bars, shops, hotels, theatres and so on because they have no disposable incomes whatsoever then the whole economy collapses
• Small businesses are also seeing their utility bills go up and that means many will fold, especially as they were already battered by the Covid crisis.

We have reached a situation where this is no longer just about whether someone can pay their bill just by managing their finance a bit better.

This is a general catastrophe that needs serious intervention...

Only the British would be meek enough to allow things to have got to this stage.

However some of the offshore oil and gas is issues licensees by the UK (ie in the North Sea) so there are some mechanisms which can be used, and a good chunk of these are now owned by pension companies, private equity and even the Chinese state

For those using France as an analogy for maintaining reasonable energy costs - they primarily use nuclear power from their nuclear power stations.

Indeed.
So let’s see what, in the grand complex schemes, they can do.

People need to Just remember that there is a shortage at the moment…profits will be made when demand outstrips supply.

Basic economics.

Alternate fuel sources and readying those is a much better option for us long term.

I’m not pre nuclear energy per se, but many are so opposed to it, conversations don’t get off the ground.

They have a museum in the NL for visitors to see how nuclear energy works and to explain it first hand!

We need to start finding alternate sources now.

Hello to you too ;

Imo the negative impact will be with those who don’t pay. It won’t be an effective protest but it will harm them personally.

Also it’s a supply issue, people choosing to self ration this drastically eg if on pre payment will be doing what other countries are enforcing. Not sure at what point you get moved to pre payment if you don’t pay but when that happens it just equals no supply

Yeh, so I was right when I said
you’re saying as a collective we can’t/shouldn’t do anything in the face of a global problem?
then wasn’t I? Not in the slightest ffs.

Thing problem with cancelling your direct debit is that the unit costs are more when you pay on receipt of bill. Even if you are a fixed rate tariff, that tariff will have rates for paying by DD and higher rates for paying on receipt of bill.

Your overall bills will be higher if you switch to receipt of bill compared to direct debit. Receipt of bill tariffs are generally even higher than prepay/PAYG.

In the long run the do not payment movement is not going to help people who can't afford their bills, it's just going to cost them more.

Reducing usage is the only way to reduce your bill and also show the producers that the price is too high.

Prices (for fuel and all types of products and services) are carefully calculated based on how many units will sell and how much profit is generated at that price point. In every case you can plot these values on a graph and you will see higher prices increase profit up to a point. Once you hit a certain cost, you sell fewer units and profits decrease.

Using less due to the unit costs will have a greater impact on the producers. However in the case of fuel the market is global, so we hVe very little power as people in other countries are willing to pay more, keeping the profits going.

The Uk has been going away from certain types of energy for 30 years.

No quick fixes at this point.
Unles someonelese knows different?

Oh my.

I cant explain things any clearer to what I have already said.
Nor will I to you at this point.

To advocate cancelling a direct debit is way beyond the pale and the thought of being considered a credit risk is simply horrifying but simply popping over and assassinating Putin would solve all our problems, after all deposing dictators has worked out so well in the past. Fucking cloud cuckoo land.

They have been trying to move away from gas yes. Not doing a great job.

I’m all for genuinely thinking increasing our nuclear energy options here.

WTF are you in about??? Are you on glue?

For people who need help, the ones you are trying to help so you say, cancelling their DD is not going to work.

You cancelling your DD isn’t going to work.

What part of that don’t you get???

loudbat has summarised how this all works very well above.

You realise two things are causing this don’t you 1) Covid and 2) The war.

Russia is also suffering because of Putin, so yes, you can be sure asasination attempts will be made.

You’ll get a ccj, a big fine and a higher tarried ultimately.

You can’t use things and not pay for them.

Do you understand that???