To be shocked at how many of today's children behave?

[PlutoCritter]

Let me start by saying i'm in my early 30s and I definitely don't come from a "children are seen and not heard"/military-family type background where children weren't allowed to speak. my parents were quite laid back in some ways. however:

we've had our first child and this year i've started to make my first mum friends. (no dads, it's very traditional around here, all either SAHMs or part-time working mums as the primary carer, in a new fairly middle class area which we've only been living in for the last year or so, so don't have strong social networks yet.)

I've only really started to host "play dates" in the last few months and very often the baby's parents bring older DC along,which I thought was great!

So it's 2x babies plus (say) a 4 year old and a 5 year old. or a couple of 3 year olds plus a 7 year old. most recently, a 5 and a 6 year old with 2 babies visited.

and JESUS CHRIST, the average bahaviour is feral!

Most have been jumping on the sofa (to the point I thought it was going to break springs and had to tell them to calm it down myself eventually), one child going into our bedroom and looking through the wardrobe (!!) when going to the bathroom, one was repeatedly sneaking into the kitchen where i was making lunch and stealing stuff from the fridge 10 minutes before i was due to serve it, lunch just smashed up into a ball of mess and not eaten by older kids (5-7 years) regularly. Getting up halfway through a meal to run off and play with toys at age 8. Constant whining for snacks and sugar drinks. One refused to drink anything at all during a 2hr visit because we only had milk or water (i literally had no juice in the house to offer). Stealing food from other people's plates. Constantly interrupting adults having a chat - not while being ignored, just as the normal way of communicating. Ramming metal car toys into the wall so the wallpaper is scratched and the plaster has dents in it in the living room.

A few days ago, one little "darling" decided it would be funny to remove all the sofa cushions and drag them into the dining room so no one could sit down until it was all fixed as we helped the littler DC take shoes and coats off, then the %/6 (ish) child stood giggling while the adults just sorted it. if i'd done that as a kid as a guest my mum would have brought the wrath of god down on me there and then!

I genuinely don't believe a lot of this would have been accepted when I was a kid, and the first couple of play dates, i thought we'd just met a couple of bad apples, but it's now 5-6 visits with 3 different families. i'm not happy to accept further playdates at home if it's going to be like this and people think it's normal. DH is the same, he's been shocked at the state of the house when people have left and on the times he's been here, he's sick of people not telling their kids how to behave as a guest and feels similarly uncomfortable at e.g. having to intervene when a child has been doing something dangerous or damaing while the parent sits and ignores it.

please tell me this isn't normal????

(let me be clear, the kids seem perfectly NICE as children, and they play nicely, e.g. sharing toys, it's just the general disrespect for adults or breaking things that i am finding absolutely shocking.)

What I find odd is that most people wouldn't accept such behaviour in a dog but are quite happy to excuse their little darlings behaving like feral devils because:

They're too young to understand
Their brains aren't developed yet
You can't expect to sit still / Be quiet etc
Children need to be able to jump about
They're just expressing themselves

And the rest.

But often that's not what happens. Often these children go from being naughty and boisterous children to perfectly happy, successful and confident adults. They annoy a lot of people but somehow along the way they also learn to moderate their behaviour sufficiently so that it is acceptable socially and in the workplace. It feels very unfair but it happens. I know lots of perfectly pleasant adults who were absolute little demons as children.

My nearly 4 year old dc is an absolute whirlwind and, I have to admit, his behaviour is terrible. I’m trying my best to curb it and I’ve upped the punishment/reward stuff as it’s the only thing that will make any difference to his behaviour (if at all). He wreaks my house, but I won’t allow him to do that in someone else’s. He generally listens more in other people’s houses and I nip everything in the bud as I’m consciously watching his every move. I can’t watch his every move at home as I have stuff to do.

Honestly, as a parent I feel like lost, like I can’t do anything with him. Everything I’ve read seems to conflict with itself. Gentle parenting hasn’t worked at all - I’m definitely not permissive either, so it’s not that I just let him get away with bad behaviour. Everything the health visitor has suggested, we’ve already tired and it’s difficult as he has a very short attention span and won’t be occupied with any one thing for more than 10 minutes. I’m at my wits end. Taking him out makes me nervous as he gets overly excited about everything.

I can’t win. If I’m too strict, I’m abusive and going to emotionally damage him. If I’m too permissive, I’m a rubbish and lazy mum. Parenting styles seem so all over the place that I don’t know where the line is anymore. When I was a kid, punishment for bad behaviour was natural but now apparently it’s unreasonable. I really don’t know what to do sometimes.

@drkpl i just wanted to say I empathise with your post and you’re not alone. I feel the same. People here say the say thing about discipline - firm boundaries and consequences etc, but I just feel lost. Like I don’t know how to be a parent. Like whatever I do doesn’t seem to work. Mines only just 2 so I keep hoping when she has more comprehension it will get easier but I just cannot reason with her or get her to follow boundaries. I thought this was slightly normal for a 2 year old but then I read threads like this and question myself.

I predict a return to savage beatings as a parenting style circa 2040 when the current generation of kids can’t get their kids to do what they want when they want.

What goes around…

@drkpl at least you are not ignoring his behaviour.
Also, 10 minutes attention span is not that unreasonable for a three year old.
He probably does need energy-burning play.
Trampoline, trike, scooter, tunnels to crawl through (improvise with taped-together cardboard boxes) tent or den to camp in (more boxes), jumping in puddles, making a kite for a windy day.
There are exercise programmes on cbbc suitable for this age.
I strongly recommend nursery or pre-school if you can.

Indeed. The 4-year-old whom I mentioned above, who stole the grocer's weights among other bits of outrageous behaviour, is now a very quiet and respectable middle-aged adult. So are some other wild kids whom I remember.

I don't mean that children need to be allowed to get away with murder, or that their little psyches will be damaged for life if they're prevented from trashing their parents' friends' homes, or that the 'good' child is likely to become a worse adult than the badly behaved one. Just that misbehaviour in young children doesn't usually presage a life of crime, or even adult 'brattishness'.

That sounds terrible
I wouldn't pit up with that, would tell them to get up and leave with their children

YANBU OP! My eldest is 6 and the way a few of his friends behave at our house could be described as feral for sure, although to be fair that’s without the parents present, might well be a different story if they were there to keep them in line. I hope my DS doesn’t behave like this when I’m not there as I’d be appalled if he did when I was there!

I’ll caveat that though with a warning that you never know how your child will be. My DS was an absolutely glorious baby and toddler, so laid back and kind natured, we really thought we’d won the jackpot were just these awesome natural parents. He’s gotten worse behaved with age and runs me ragged now, age 6. You really don’t know what might happen.

@Cinnabomb That does sound normal
for a 2 year old! At that age you often have to physically enforce the boundaries - eg ‘I won’t let you crash that car into the wall’ (removing car) - but also give positive direction as much as possible (‘libraries are for whispering’ rather than ‘don’t talk loudly’) as they can struggle to understand negative direction. But really it is very normal for a 2 year old not to follow boundaries, their brains are incredibly immature at that age.

But often that's not what happens. Often these children go from being naughty and boisterous children to perfectly happy, successful and confident adults. They annoy a lot of people but somehow along the way they also learn to moderate their behaviour sufficiently so that it is acceptable socially and in the workplace. It feels very unfair but it happens. I know lots of perfectly pleasant adults who were absolute little demons as children.

@Goldbar I totally get what you’re saying there - my DH was one of them 😂 my PIL were definitely not pushovers, he was just a menace (his two brothers were fine apparently). But I think you’re thinking of ‘naughty’ and ‘boisterous’ kids as in kids that defy parents authority, while I’m and I think also the OP is referring to kids who are literally permitted to do what they want and have no real understand of being told no because that does need to be taught from a young age. These kids arrive at nursery or school and literally seem confused at being told ‘no.’ They think teachers are crazy and unreasonable for doing so, and it’s constantly reaffirmed at home so it continues right through secondary school. Problem is, if you get to uni, no one gives a shit if you do well, they’ll let you fail. If you work for someone, they don’t care about you personally they’ll sack you if you don’t do your job properly.

Some kids are just hard work - parents try their best, and I think when you see a parent trying that is always appreciated. The children may not care about boundaries but they do take in what a boundary is. The word no is not somehow foreign.
Kids with permissive parents don’t learn early enough what a boundary actually is, and they struggle to come to terms with the idea that boundaries can apply to them. It’s damaging.

Kids do stuff like this that they shouldn't, but it's the job of parents to be telling them not to. That's how they grow up to be decent human beings.
So the child interrupting gets told Mummy will speak to you in a minute, let me finish what I'm saying to X.
The child jumping on a sofa is told they aren't allowed to jump on Y's sofa. Even if they do so at home they need to learn different houses have different rules.
But also I have no fear of telling a visiting child that they can't do something. That's just normal. So last week's visitors were told (nicely) not to bounce on the bed. We also talked about reasons why they might take shoes off at home, (garden mud etc) but I didn't mind shoes on in my flat. They also got toys to play with and activities I thought they'd like because I'm not a monster.

All caveats added, well parented kids tend to behave. Comments like this and along the lines of 'wait till yours are older', are probably from people making excuses for poorly or lazy parented children.

It is not normal. Years ago my friend had a friend who's child would trash her home. My DS had a friend once at his birthday party that stood on the chairs and climbed on the table when he was 10!

My DS could be challenging at home sometimes but he behaved when we were out. The amount of children I saw today bumping into people, shouting, messing about in shops. Other parents seem to think other people will parent their kids. Nah I dont.

Do not have these kids back.

To the posters asking if we had age appropriate stuff for older kids, yes there's loads for older kids here (well, up to about 8-9, I'm sure a teen would be bored to death) including a chest full of Lego kits, a Nintendo thing that DH owns but has some kid games on like Mario which I tried to distract with, colouring books and a chalk board set up at the doorway. All a tiny bit old for babies to use really. A few toy cars wind up themselves and there's a track - given 2nd hand from a family member so old but absolutely appropriate for the non babies. To be fair they did play with a lot of it, but I could have done without the other behaviour along with it (damaging things)

I dunno, arseholes certainly seem to get places in life.

I used to know a little darling who would come to play with one of mine, and instead go straight upstairs and strip all the beds. Brat.

I think the concept of gentle parenting has been taken too far.

I have a friend with a three year old girl. We were out for a walk a couple of weeks ago and the little girl decided she wanted to walk on the very edge of the path, where there was a steep drop of about six feet.

Instead of stopping the child, my friend tried to negotiate with her whilst holding her hand, using phrases such as "I don't like this, I think you should walk over here" etc. Meanwhile the kid is wobbling along the edge and it would have only taken a slippery hand and a trip...

The child is pretty much feral. No set bed time, no boundaries. Does what she likes whenever.

But you know, if you tell a child "no" you may hurt their feelings...

Yes they do unfortunately...

You only need to look at the phenomenon of mediocre but self-confident men being promoted over more competent but less confident women to see that this is often the case.

I'm in no way saying that we should give up all effort to get children to behave like decent human beings and let them ride roughshod over everyone else - that would make life very uncomfortable for everyone! But unfortunately children who are anxious for adult praise and therefore compliant and obedient aren't necessarily going to find their efforts rewarded later on as compared to the "troublemakers".

Though I agree with @BeanieTeen that it is still important for 'difficult' children to know that there are boundaries (and where they are), even if they push them regularly.

Parents just can't be bothered to parent, effectively.

There is little consequence, these days, when you act like a spoilt brat.

It riles me up. And I don't blame the child, moreso, the parent. I brought numerous children up as a single mother. My children were impeccable 99% of the time. This was rejected at nursery, other peoples' houses, playdates, parties, relations, everywhere. Because they knew I didn't EVER stand for disrespect.

I'm in no way saying that we should give up all effort to get children to behave like decent human beings and let them ride roughshod over everyone else - that would make life very uncomfortable for everyone! But unfortunately children who are anxious for adult praise and therefore compliant and obedient aren't necessarily going to find their efforts rewarded later on as compared to the "troublemakers".

What I was getting at though is that these ‘troublemakers’ as we know them from maybe our younger years, the ones that are now in many cases successful and as a pp said well rounded and functioning adults, are not the same as what we’re dealing with now with all this permissive parenting.
‘Troublemakers’ up to 10 or 20 years ago were wilful and confident kids - yes they are hard to discipline but parents still tried. And trying still counts and still teaches them something. And it’s their natural wilfulness and confidence - what makes them hard work as children - that does serve them well later in life if they learn to channel it in the right way. That’s what my DH seemingly did anyway.

I think the types of kids the OP mentioned and that have been referred to on this thread are not like that. Most will not be naturally more confident or wilful than your average child, they simply just haven’t been taught the true concept of ‘no’ or what a boundary is. I think it’s a major life skill that needs ideally to be taught very early. So unlike these ‘naughty’ kids of days gone by, they don’t always have natural confidence and wilfulness to fall back on as they grow up. They’re just doomed to be a bit confused in life I think, because they have a completely distorted view from a very young age of how the world functions and how they need to function in it, which is hard to unlearn once established. I think it’s a recipe for major anxiety and frustration later in life.

I worked in a preschool for a while and we had an annual family dinner where patents could meet each other and the staff in an informal environment. I'll never forget seeing all the children screaming and hollering and jumping on the furniture, throwing food, crying, hitting each other. Of course this was not the way they acted at school at all. When I commented to a much more experienced colleague they said, 'well they're with their parents now.'

I think of that often when I'm with other young children who just cannot or will not behave. Of course some children have totally legitimate reasons for why they can't conform to norms of behavior and that's ok. But some of my children's peers are shocking. I remember seeing one girl take two bites each out of about eight slices of pizza and throw all the rest away because she only liked the very centre of the pizza. My partner and I were so shocked (and amused).

I agree on most of these, except not drinking anything for 2 hours as there was only milk or water on offer. Not the worst, otherwise yadnbu.

It's not the children who are infuriating, it's the parents who let them behave like that

Children are like dogs. They need to expend energy running outside before they can play indoors nicely. Or, to continue the dog analogy, not as a recommendation, they need to be tied up so as not to wreck the house.