Page 9 | Crying over French attitude to my autistic son

Luckyloubytwo · 2022-08-21T16:03:18+00:00

We are in France at the moment and having a mostly wonderful time. DS 9 has asd but is usually fairly easy going, quiet, and you wouldn't notice he was different to other children. However, yesterday and today he has had a huge meltdown in public. When this happens in the UK it is difficult but people generally are understanding and mimd their own business. However, here it seems to bring the whole town to a standstill. People will just stop in their tracks and stare. Today we were in a busy area and it seemed to bring everyone to a halt. We all got very upset back at the car and I just can't stop crying. I am just feeling so upset at the attitude of the French people towards our son.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 21/08/2022 21:19

SunnyD44 · 21/08/2022 21:12

I think you’ve actually just been very fortunate when your son has had a meltdown in the UK.

IME people in the UK do stare a lot.

I have a few students who have meltdowns quite regularly and the people around are used to it but they still stare.

I think it’s hard not to stare tbh even though it’s rude to do so.
Us Brits are always worried about being rude so we try not to stare.
Whereas other countries don’t see things being rude in the same way we do (eg. they don’t say sorry every 5 mins) and so then staring may not be rude to them.

You are going to get dickheads wherever you go.
But I would try not to care about people staring as it’s not necessarily done out of being nasty or judgemental.

French staring is other level. You will
literally get them in a circle round you with their hand on their hips and staring at the tantrum.

Fifife · 21/08/2022 21:20

InvincibleInvisibility · 21/08/2022 21:05

There is SEN provision in French schools!!!!

PAI, PAP, extra time in exams, use of computers rather than writing etc. etc.

This thread has really annoyed me - I've lived in France nearly 20 years and yes it is different to the UK (duh, it's a different country) but some things are better, some worse and some just different.

Staring is not rude here.

Talking to other people's children is not rude here (my DC have often had lovely strangers stopping to chat to them. My then 18 month old got a round of applause and a bravo from someone for climbing a huge flight of steps)

Children are expected to behave and can be told off. Equally when you disagree with that person you just shrug your shoulders.

Greeting everyone (shops, bus drivers, a friend's parent etc) with Bonjour Madame/Monsieur is expected

Both my DC have ADHD and dyspraxia. Several objective (not questionnaires) asessments and diagnosis in 4 months each. And at every appointment with specialists they have ALL spent time asking how i am doing and how i am coping. Its not just supporting my DC.

I'm not saying it's perfect - there's still progress to be made but my experience has been generally good.

Im sorry you had a bad experience Op (and others). But the staring wasn't necessarily meant nastily. And its not like having a load of foreigners chipping trying to help would have been useful would it?

ADHD and Dyspraxia is very different to ASD especially the more severe end of the spectrum. You can't compare the treatment of ADHD and Dyspraxia to children with autism and/or LD who are being locked up in institutions and taken away into care. 80 percent of children with autism aren't in school in France, they also use psychoanalytics which is not the right treatment.

headstone · 21/08/2022 21:21

The French stare more, I think it’s cultural and seen as ok. We are. Mixed race couple and get stared at a lot in France. I think it’s more curios then criticism if that helps.

sunglassesonthetable · 21/08/2022 21:22

It’s highly likely OP has experienced her child having meltdowns in the uk so I think we can allow her to judge if it was a different experience in France.

very good point

InvincibleInvisibility · 21/08/2022 21:22

OP disliked the staring in one French town (presumably a tourist town so maybe not just the French staring).

That does not mean all French have a problem with autism. and staring is not as rude and judgemental here as the UK

LightDrizzle · 21/08/2022 21:22

It may have changed in 18 years, I hope so, but France is the only country where my obviously severely physically and cognitively disabled small daughter elicited frequent and overt lingering stares of repugnance from adults. We’d travelled there extensively previously with DD1 and had positive experiences.

In Spain and Portugal the infrastructure may be lacking but the helpfulness and kindness of strangers more than makes up for it.

I was so shocked and mentioned it to my company accountant. He has a son with a visible physical disability as a result of CP and they had experienced similar and never went back.

We we’re in Normandy and Brittany. Hardly the back of beyond.

PutinSmellsPassItOn · 21/08/2022 21:23

We had the same issue when we visited around 15 years ago with 4 Autistic dc between 2 families.......we felt like the circus walking through town as people stopped in their tracks and stared..And that was just them being their normal selves and existing.

Not sure how integrated people who have learning disabilities and conditions like Autism are in France but I did ponder if they're 'locked away ' more and less visible. It must be an awful thing to deal with for people who actually live.there. We're under enough pressure as it is.

PutinSmellsPassItOn · 21/08/2022 21:25

LighyDrizzle you hit the nail on the head there. There was an air of revulsion and the ones doing it made damn sure we knew it

crimesagainstwine · 21/08/2022 21:26

In a lot of French schools there's no such thing as SEN provision, not just France but in many other countries.

Ah cos of course the UK has nailed it!

Will people stop generalising about the French and actually educate themselves about what provision has been made since 2018 and what is the reality rather than some folks' experiences of being stared at in a supermarket.

OP I felt sorry for you and offered and explanation as to how French think/feel - you have doubled down and just slagged off a whole nation

Go on holiday elsewhere please - your xenophobia is showing

DaisyFleur · 21/08/2022 21:29

Sorry to hear that. The people who are staring, it is their problem. Perhaps there is less education about Autism. Maybe you could put a piece into the press so that a bit of awareness is created. A lot of people are just staring out of concern, wondering if they can help but not wanting to invade space.

You sound a lovely mum, and have a lovely family, be proud and ignore it. Autism is just another way of being, and autism is a normal part of life and everyday society.

I would ignore it, and not stare back, just focus on your family and don't be focusing on them.

Some might think that he has a temper and they just do not know about autism. If they come over to you , you can explain if you wish to.
I hope that you have all been able to have better days in France.

Aiionwatha · 21/08/2022 21:29

crimesagainstwine · 21/08/2022 18:39

Go to a French park and all you can hear is “ Maxence ça suffit ”. “Charlotte non” “ Amandine on rentre a la maison” etc

The French do not tolerate bad behaviour from their or other kids - I see nothing wrong with that. It takes a village to raise a child.

As to our attitudes to those who are different incl autism/Asperger's - there is a great deal of knowledge about this and to imply otherwise is disingenuous. However I have seen similar behaviour and attitudes in UK and other European supermarkets when children have had meltdowns.

People do stare - to see if they can help, to see if the child is coming to harm and to understand the situation. The language barrier you are experiencing now may have increased your anxiety but it may be that people are looking for signs to see if they can help parents and/or child. This is normal behaviour really for all nationalities.

Equally depending where you are there may be lots of generally intolerant tourists - hot and bothered and just trying to get round unfamiliar surroundings themselves.

Please try not to take it personally but please don't judge a whole nation on one experience either.

How is blankly staring a way of seeing if you can help? If you want to help, you have to say so. Everyone knows that wordlessly staring at someone is just going to make them self conscious and achiebe absolutely nothing good.

5zeds · 21/08/2022 21:29

There was an air of revulsion and the ones doing it made damn sure we knew it
This is what people are trying to tell you. PLEASE stop telling us “people just stare more there”. I’m sure most parents have travelled and are aware of cultural differences. They’ve probably been to France multiple times without their disabled child. Imagine being on the receiving end of that about your child.

mathanxiety · 21/08/2022 21:30

Staring isn't necessarily done with a hostile intent.

It's considered rude in the UK but you were not in the UK and the people staring were not British.

When you assume the worst of people you make life harder for yourself.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 21/08/2022 21:31

crimesagainstwine · 21/08/2022 21:26

In a lot of French schools there's no such thing as SEN provision, not just France but in many other countries.

Ah cos of course the UK has nailed it!

Will people stop generalising about the French and actually educate themselves about what provision has been made since 2018 and what is the reality rather than some folks' experiences of being stared at in a supermarket.

OP I felt sorry for you and offered and explanation as to how French think/feel - you have doubled down and just slagged off a whole nation

Go on holiday elsewhere please - your xenophobia is showing

When the hell has the OP been xenophobic?!

Poor woman has been in tears because of people judging her in the supermarket and you’re calling her xenophobic.

She simply stated she was in France and it was French people staring. Should she have said ‘anonymous country’ instead?

SizzlerFizzler · 21/08/2022 21:31

crimesagainstwine · 21/08/2022 21:26

In a lot of French schools there's no such thing as SEN provision, not just France but in many other countries.

Ah cos of course the UK has nailed it!

Will people stop generalising about the French and actually educate themselves about what provision has been made since 2018 and what is the reality rather than some folks' experiences of being stared at in a supermarket.

OP I felt sorry for you and offered and explanation as to how French think/feel - you have doubled down and just slagged off a whole nation

Go on holiday elsewhere please - your xenophobia is showing

what is it exactly about the OP's second post that has you so upset? it seems reasonable to me.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 21/08/2022 21:34

Aiionwatha · 21/08/2022 21:29

How is blankly staring a way of seeing if you can help? If you want to help, you have to say so. Everyone knows that wordlessly staring at someone is just going to make them self conscious and achiebe absolutely nothing good.

Show quote history

Yea I’m out buying the ‘staring because they want to help’ BS. If they’re bold enough to stare and tell other people’s children off they’re bold enough to offer help a struggling mum.

Ironically for people crying xenophobia they may well be judging you because you’re British. According to my relatives who live there, they reckon many think the British are uncouth with badly behaved children and no manners. They’ve not always been welcome in their community because of anti-British sentiment

mathanxiety · 21/08/2022 21:34

Agree with @crimesagainstwine - the French expect children to accommodate themselves to their surroundings, and train them to observe what's going on, the general noise level, the level of formality, and fit in.

SizzlerFizzler · 21/08/2022 21:35

For those getting angry that I am speaking ill of the French. Like I said in my original post, we are having a wonderful time and it is a beautiful country. However, what we experienced wasn't just once but twice, in two different places, and not just the attitude of one person but of many people.

^ nothing xenophobic there.

some people are clearly angry at this thread but I don't see the point in making things up and alleging the OP has said something she hasn't.

drbuzzaro · 21/08/2022 21:36

mathanxiety · 21/08/2022 21:34

Agree with @crimesagainstwine - the French expect children to accommodate themselves to their surroundings, and train them to observe what's going on, the general noise level, the level of formality, and fit in.

what if they can't?

mathanxiety · 21/08/2022 21:36

Agree with @LINABE too.

KermitlovesKeyLimePie · 21/08/2022 21:37

This is why we love going to the USA on holiday. We have never had a negative experience with DS17.

They are so much more positive and understanding.

5zeds · 21/08/2022 21:37

Will people stop generalising about the French and actually educate themselves about what provision has been made since 2018
There’s been this thing called Covid-19. So many of us haven’t been travelling, especially those of us with disabled children. I would imagine if you only improved things in 2018 then there isn’t a huge change in attitudes in the general public. I mean they’ve been at home for the last couple of years.

blackpearwhitelilies · 21/08/2022 21:38

I lived in France for several years and never saw people standing in circles, arms on hips, staring.

sunglassesonthetable · 21/08/2022 21:44

*OP I felt sorry for you and offered and explanation as to how French think/feel - you have doubled down and just slagged off a whole nation

Go on holiday elsewhere please - your xenophobia is showing*

@crimesagainstwine

nah, think you've got this muddled with another poster.

crimesagainstwine · 21/08/2022 21:50

The OP has had two (albeit two too many) bad experiences with her child whilst on holiday in France.

She has assumed it is bad because of how how the "host nation" reacted - she has then said "French people" as though we are an homogenous lump.

She has not listened when people talk about French way of interacting or developments in provision.

She has stated it has been very upsetting for her - I don't doubt it has and feel empathy. However how many times has she experienced this in her home country or other countries? I would be suprised if it is never.

She loves her holiday in France - great - that's good to know. However she and other posters have implied that we are some backwater nation that is neither caring or empathetic. She and others have judged French policy and school provision on one 2018 Guardian article.

And finally - just because the UK does neurodivergence different - why totally dismiss the French (or other nations) approach? There may be middle-ground

However all this UK GOOD - FRANCE BAD is a bit simplistic

And the poster who said all SEN children they knew were locked in some French institution or attic - now that is FUCKING offensive