Crying over French attitude to my autistic son

[Luckyloubytwo]

We are in France at the moment and having a mostly wonderful time. DS 9 has asd but is usually fairly easy going, quiet, and you wouldn't notice he was different to other children.

However, yesterday and today he has had a huge meltdown in public. When this happens in the UK it is difficult but people generally are understanding and mimd their own business. However, here it seems to bring the whole town to a standstill. People will just stop in their tracks and stare. Today we were in a busy area and it seemed to bring everyone to a halt. We all got very upset back at the car and I just can't stop crying.

I am just feeling so upset at the attitude of the French people towards our son.

Just for balance I’ve taken my large family including my stim-tastic overtly autistic son to a cafe in Paris and the staff couldn’t have been kinder. They have the children fancy cocktail straws with their breakfast just to make ds smile and were lovely. Generally I don’t find France easy though and although I come from a country where watching people is fine, I don’t think it’s that OP is describing. Spain is on the whole more friendly and middle and Far East easier still. All have some arseholes and some absolute gems.

I'm English but was brought up in France, I've lived here almost my entire life and have had my complete schooling here. From a VERY young age (5) we're taught that the world doesn't revolve around us, that whilst we can have as much fun and laughter as we want, that we need to be respectful of everyone, whether that's our peers, our teachers or random adults/other children in the streets. No, we weren't allowed to have a monster tantrum in the street, screaming in front of everyone for ages. We were taken outside and asked what the matter was, how they could help, we were calmed down and told that screaming your arse off gets you nowhere and that it's extremely rude, which it is.

Some posters (not you) make it sound like we were all yelled at as soon as any of us squealed in excitement and had our joy squashed out of us- this isn't the case. Yes, kids, on the whole, are well-behaved here because the teachings are entirely different. Anyone being disrespectful gets called out on it, no matter your age. Community is rife where I am and everyone needs to be respectful and that includes kids.

This is only a personal anecdote but I had 3 kids with autism with me throughout my entire schooling and whilst they weren't "diagnosed" with it officially (as far as I'm aware), the teachers made sure they had what they needed in order to learn. One's now an engineer, the other is gearing up to be a pro in rugby and the other I lost touch with. Having been with them throughout, when they asked for help, they got it.

Stare back at them or give them the middle finger.

FFS don't do this. And at least not if you ever go to Germany where you may have to pay a fine.

It sounds very stressful, OP.

Thanks for all that judgement

@drbuzzaro Sorry but you're wrong.
Also, it makes no sense to say 'ableism' as that means prejudice TOWARDS (or IN FAVOUR OF) able-bodied people. DISablism ie DISability, makes more sense.

"Internationally, disablism is the more commonly used term and, it is my understanding, ableism is really used only in North America and Australia. The reason for this, I believe, is the way the disability rights movement emerged in each country. In the U.K., the emphasis was on the construction of disability and how people were disabled by social barriers. In the U.S. the focus was rights. There are, however, some folks in the United States who do use disablism exclusively or who use them both."
stillmyrevolution.org/2013/01/01/disablism-or-ableism/

"Disablism and ableism are words that are used to describe disability discrimination and prejudice. A bit like sexism and racism are used to describe discrimination against men or women and different ethnic groups.
Definitions
Disablism
Disablism is discrimination or prejudice against disabled people.

“An organisation has a problem with disablism”.
“A disablist attitude”.
Ableism
Ableism is discrimination in favour of non-disabled people.
“An organisation has a problem with ableism”.
“An ableist attitude”.
The difference between disablism and ableism
Both terms describe disability discrimination, but the emphasis is different.

Disablism emphasises discrimination against disabled people.
Ableism emphasises discrimination in favour of non-disabled people."
www.scope.org.uk/about-us/disablism/

prejudice TOWARDS (or IN FAVOUR OF) should say prejudice AGAINST (or ANTI ABLE-BODIED PEOPLE).

Ignore the people who are triggered by children it being robotic weirdos.

Your family sound like a family of 5 children. Perfectly normal

'we need to be respectful of everyone, whether that's our peers, our teachers or random adults/other children in the streets.'
@Wildflowercottage Would you say you are also taught to be respectful of people with differences and disabilities and that you are taught not to stare? There seem to be a lot of people commenting who say they have been stared at and treated disrespectfully because of disabilities.
'This is only a personal anecdote but I had 3 kids with autism with me throughout my entire schooling and whilst they weren't "diagnosed" with it officially (as far as I'm aware), the teachers made sure they had what they needed in order to learn.' How do you know they had autism if they weren't diagnosed, out of interest?

The problem is that this thread has attracted both genuine questions about disabilities and lazy stereotyping

Aww, that's great to hear. There are all sorts of people in every country, that's true. Very glad the cafe was welcoming.

Nooo! I wrote a really long reply and it only posted this bit! Ugh, will try and rewrite it later!

In the place I've grown up, yes we were taught to be respectful of others' differences. I was the first English child to have ever gone to the school, didn't speak a word of the language and everyone was extremely welcoming and helpful. I had teachers teaching me the lessons + the language and kids teaching me the language in the school playground. I was very "different" to everyone else and was never excluded/laughed at/forgotten. A few other kids who were "different" were treated the same.

In terms of staring, as people have said up thread, it's really not a big deal in the slightest over here. Having come from the UK and still having ties there, I understand that it's rude over there, but here it really isn't.

The parents and teachers spoke to us about it, we were all told that they had some differences and to be kind, helpful etc but there wasn't an actual label attached. If a new kid came and wasn't aware and asked why that kid was different, they were just told "that's the way they are and they need more help". All of this in a very rural area that had their first Brits move in twenty years ago, so definitely not some big metropolitan city.

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet
See another thread where an ASD DS called his mum a fucking whore and attempted to break down the bathroom door while she was in there. Some behaviours are problems that need to be fixed.

@Wildflowercottage OK, that's interesting. I can't see how teachers could effectively help if they had no diagnosis, though. Or how just because the children seemed different you all knew they were autistic? Also, I would have thought they would also need to know if the children had any learning disabilities so teaching could be adjusted. I don't know if the challenges of learning a second language are really equal to the challenges of being autistic in a non autistic world, either..

I'm sure if the kids would've had an extensive diagnosis like there appears to be in the UK then words other than simply "autistic" would've been used. As kids, we all knew that they were different to us, they had difficulty learning some things that most of the rest of us didn't and that it was expected we respect them/help them as we help others. I'm not saying it was perfect and super professional at all, but they weren't cast aside because they had suspected autism, they weren't hidden away in hospitals or refused entry to the school. They were accepted and had more one on one time with the teachers, extra time in exams, more opportunities for tutoring than the rest of us.

No, of course not knowing a language isn't an equal challenge, but your question was about differences and I was different because I didn't speak French, yet I wasn't treated any differently particularly.

(My area of) France isn't perfect and yes, improvements can be made, but it's not a horrible place where everyone stares at everyone constantly, forces children to never make a sound and lock people with autism in hospitals away from everyone else.

@Wildflowercottage Thank you. I am genuinely interested in the education around inclusivity in French schools, so that was helpful. I would venture to guess that teachers are reluctant to push for diagnoses because there is stigma around that. They may well be vague as a form of kindness to those children, in their eyes i.e. in a country where provision isn't good for autism it's better not to mention it and make individual adjustments. That's only my guess. I do hope the French curriculum will start to include more autism and disability awareness in specific terms. What would be particularly useful is hearing from those groups affected.

@Wildflowercottage do you know any diagnosed autistic people? Are there people with other disabilities at your work/church/clubs? Do any work in your community in any visible way? If not where are they?

@gnilliwdog Neither the teachers nor parents seemed to push for it, it just wasn't/isn't the culture. Obviously, I was a child and then teenager when all of this was going on and only have the accounts of the kids, not their parents. The place isn't equipped to deal with it because it doesn't seem to get diagnosed anywhere near as often as in the UK, but the people affected equally (in my experience) aren't banished from day-to-day life either.

@5zeds You're saying "diagnosed" as if this is the UK and diagnosis is common. I don't know the majority of my friend's medical information, no, so no clue if any of them are diagnosed. I do know the 3 kids I grew up with, who certainly did seem to have autism and were treated as such (well, 2, lost touch with 1). As for other disabilities - yes I do, it's not uncommon. My friends and acquaintances are also very vocal about most of them speaking to a psychiatrist, they talk openly about it as if it's no big deal at all (which it isn't). Mental health issues, autism, disabilities etc etc aren't taboo here.

It’s heartening to hear you have many disabled people active in your community. I’m honestly not that impressed with the three quirky kids in your class being autistic because it’s opinion not fact. The assessment is rigorous and done by a variety of professionals not teachers, not other students.
I can honestly say I haven’t witnessed disabled adults out and about in France.

@Wildflowercottage I would recommend you type France Autism as a search term. There are well documented concerns by the media and disability organisations about the treatment of autistic people in France. I don't know the situation with disabilities more generally. I understand your own community may seem inclusive, but there are real issues at an institutional and national level.

Staring is always rude.

Staring beyond the milli/seconds to assess whether someone needs help or not... Is rude.

"Staring" in animals would be seen as aggressive.

Staring in humans makes the recipient feel uncomfortable at best.

Dismissing that as a cultural thing is BS. It is a universal human thing. Universally humans will avert their eyes if they don't want to be seen as studying someone or challenging someone etc. If they want to show respect etc

I call BS on the staring being normal or acceptable anywhere. It might be "normal" but it's still bad mannered and lacks empathy to a high degree.

Oh and see how totally normal, comfortable and non rude any starers find it when you stare back and keep at it. They don't like it.

@5zeds The main thing to remember is it's a different culture, different ways of dealing with situations. In some places I've been, there's been a general agreement that it's better to have the majority of disabled people in the same community, where they'll have professionals around them 24/7.
I don't mean a hospital or anything like that, but entire towns that are extremely disability friendly. I went to a place called Lamalou-les-Bains a couple of weeks ago and had a drink on what you'd consider a "high street". About 90% of people walking past had disabilities and easily 70% of the shops etc in the whole town were targeted towards helping those people. Professionals are everywhere there and all ready to help (as in, they work and live in the town so are always around), the cafes and restaurants were all equipped with disabled toilets, giant terraces that could fit 50 wheelchairs in, etc. Small kids with autism were also there and some were loud, but absolutely no one batted an eyelid.

Sounds like a ghetto.

Even nice ghettos are still ghettos.

@LemonDrop22 Sounds like a ghetto.

What do you mean?