Crying over French attitude to my autistic son

[Luckyloubytwo]

We are in France at the moment and having a mostly wonderful time. DS 9 has asd but is usually fairly easy going, quiet, and you wouldn't notice he was different to other children.

However, yesterday and today he has had a huge meltdown in public. When this happens in the UK it is difficult but people generally are understanding and mimd their own business. However, here it seems to bring the whole town to a standstill. People will just stop in their tracks and stare. Today we were in a busy area and it seemed to bring everyone to a halt. We all got very upset back at the car and I just can't stop crying.

I am just feeling so upset at the attitude of the French people towards our son.

yeah, so long as other people aren't offended by his disability

The problem is, saying "the UK" indicates the government/institutions of power, whereas "the French" implies "the people of France". I haven't noticed anyone on this thread saying "Sarkozy is a deranged, corrupt monster who makes Boris Johnson seem like a teletubby" (I wouldn't disagree, btw) but plenty of "the French are rude" and "the French are intolerant". The two positions (criticism of a country's legislative bodies vs criticism of the general population's attitudes and behaviours) aren't really comparable.

"Depends on situation. If ds was behaving in an antisocial manner which disturbed and offended other people then YABU"

So what sort of behaviour would that be?

This thread has been very educational. There are a lot of articles analysing the issues with autism in France, but I had no idea of the problems until now. Issues I have read about include a number of ideas e.g. The deeply conformist attitudes in France lead to a medicalising of autism. It's regarded as something wrong with a person, something to be fixed. We are moving in the UK towards regarding autism more as a difference, not requiring fixing. We don't see stimming as a negative thing, but as a thing which can help an autistic person self regulate .In France it is a behaviour to be eradicated so a person can appear more normal. Interestingly France, in trying to improve autism services, most frequently offers ABA as a treatment. From what I understand this is a controversial treatment as it seeks to make behaviour as 'normal' as possible and can be repetitive and punitive. Before the interest in ABA psychoanalysis was the only treatment offered, which saw autism as created by the relationship with the mother. The treatment of 'packing' autistic children, wrapping them in cold wet towels and holding them down is also horrific. As is the fact that many nurseries and schools refused to take autistic children at all. Children also appear to either have been sent to psychiatric day care or permanently institutionalised. It seems unsurprising that a fear and suspicion of autism may have entered public thinking when the treatments offered are so hostile. France is really not alone in this and is trying to improve, it seems. I think it's useful for autistic people to know about this history, in fact it is their right.

Btw there’s some nutters on here. How on earth are strangers to know whether a child is disabled or just being a general little bugger. Nothing ableist about it stop looking for ways to be offended. If they’re making a scene or affecting someone’s peace then of course people are going to be pissed off. Screaming causes migraines, kicking causes bruises, making loud noise in general will set off other children which most parents won’t be best please of.

It could be infinitely worse in other parts of the world. We are shocked because we. consider our cultures to be similar to France. We have been moving in different directions for a while. I hope I op is okay and is finding an improvement in her holiday.

I didn’t enjoy being treated (as a woman) in the Middle East or my children frisked in the US and barked at. Or the sexism in Australia. Or the raised eyebrows at dd10 wearing shorts in Qatar. Or zero alcohol in western chain hotels in various Muslim countries. Or no disabled facilities in Austria after major surgery on my spine and the staff asking if I can walk?! Terribly poor offering of vegetarian food In Finland with just reindeer meat on offer. The massage in India that included my breasts. I was so triggered, violated and horrified I couldn’t speak for a few minutes. For the therapist it was normal
I am sure. I could go on.

When we travel our own values and expectations are and should be suspended - we can’t expect the same good or bad as our lives here in the U.K.

The problem is, saying "the UK" indicates the government/institutions of power, whereas "the French" implies "the people of France". I haven't noticed anyone on this thread saying "Sarkozy is a deranged, corrupt monster who makes Boris Johnson seem like a teletubby" (I wouldn't disagree, btw) but plenty of "the French are rude" and "the French are intolerant". The two positions (criticism of a country's legislative bodies vs criticism of the general population's attitudes and behaviours) aren't really comparable.

Oh stop it with you faux philosophy - you did not read a thing I said - and why bring "Bling Bling" up?

The point is there are absolutely corrupt politicians on all sides (Marcon included) - but we do not have to be like them.

If politicians are the worst of humanity then we can be the best

Stereotyping the French is lazy as fuck - as is doing same to English and other nationalities

People are articulating what they have felt and they (to some degree) have made sweeping statements that I personally find offensive but let's go beyond that and agree to be supportive

Move on - and agree no one is perfect. It's not hard

"How on earth are strangers to know whether a child is disabled or just being a general little bugger."

They would have to be pretty ignorant to not realise with a child my son's age buy then you get those who can't cope with someone with a disability being near them.

When we travel our own values and expectations are and should be suspended - we can’t expect the same good or bad as our lives here in the U.K.
I couldn’t disagree with you more. Who are you if you become racist when with racists, sexist when with sexists etc??

This x 10000.

French people are unlikely to be crying over this and wondering if they can ever book a holiday or have a day out again. Unlike the OP, whose life is forever impacted.

I will not be moving to Harrogate mind!

😱 most offensive comment on the thread so far 🤣

FFS the child is autistic

There’s been loads of sweeping statements about British people on this thread!

Does it matter - an actual child being a ‘general little bigger’ doesn’t justify staring either FFS.

Wow, this makes me thankful that I'm in the UK.

And yet we are always being told on mn (just today in fact) that France is a haven of tolerance for children. Clearly not!

oh op I’m sorry you felt so judged. That must’ve felt horrible. Hope you’ve all managed to feel more peaceful now

Im so sorry OP you’ve had such an upsetting experience. I really hope you can continue you holiday in a Relaxing and unjudged way.

I’m on holiday in France at the moment with 5 kids. All are exuberant, loud and active, the way kids should be. So far they’ve been shouted out on the beach for digging in the sand too close to the dunes -they might cause erosion; shouted at in the boulangerie for touching a glass cabinet (not touching any food, just the cabinet that housed it) shouted out in restaurants for not sitting quietly for the entire meal, shouted at for not moving out of the way quickly enough on the road , shouted at for laughing too loudly in a cafe. They range in age from 1-11. We’ve been refused service in many a restaurant..not overtly because of the make-up of our group but easy to guess the reason in almost empty restaurants!

I know this won’t be a popular view but I think France and French people have an issue with kids full stop. I love everything French but I think their attitude to kids absolutely stinks.

In my many years of visiting France, I have noticed a different attitude to the UK in regards to disabilities. People with disabilities are less visible and there is much less consideration for accessibility. However, I have been 10+ times with my DC and not once has a French person told them off, or even looked as if they wanted to! They are certainly not especially well-behaved. Their penchant for riding up and down the supermarket escalators has been met with nothing more than indulgent smiles - the only person telling them off is me!

I don't really see much difference with parenting styles in general. It's just a snapshot but we often stay at campsites Parents play a lot of games with their DC, splashing with them in the pool etc, just like the parents from other nationalities.

Bless her. That sounds awful.

I don’t think there’s any cultural excuse in this day and age. People should have some cop on. Surely if you see someone behaving ‘differently’ in the street your first reaction is to assume there must be a reason for it, not to judge?

"I know this won’t be a popular view but I think France and French people have an issue with kids full stop. I love everything French but I think their attitude to kids absolutely stinks."

I totally disagree.

Digging too close to sand dunes IS a problem and shouldn't be allowed.

Touching the glass in bakeries - well sticky finger marks isn't going to make their food look appetizing is it? And they will have to clean it more often if people do that. Touching the glass is not at all necessary.

Cafes/restaurants are really welcoming to kids BECAUSE French children are expected to sit properly, eat the same food as adults etc. If you weren't welcome then take a look at how you are all behaving.

My kids have always been welcomed and treated nicely (we live in France). Waiters slip them little chocolates and ask them questions about how they're doing etc. I've always found cafes, restaurants and bakeries very patient when listening to young children ordering food. Its how they learn.

Oh and my boys are both hyperactive ADHD. They know how to behave in shops and restaurants and it is up to us as parents to make it a success (exercise before going to restaurant/not having a 3 course meal plus coffee etc)

OP please ignore people like this. You are doing a wonderful job with your child.

How on earth are strangers to know whether a child is disabled or just being a general little bugger.

Pretty sure someone with an IQ of 10 can tell the difference. Even if they were just being naughty, it's no one's business but the parents'. What's up with this pathetic public voyeurism. Anyone who feels the need to gawk at someone else's distress needs to get a life and learn some basic social awareness, regardless of culture.

The lack of empathy in some of these comments is so sad. This poor lady was just looking for a bit of solidarity and encouragement from fellow mums, and people are getting all sniffy about her daring to suggest that the French don't get everything right, and even claiming it was somehow her fault?!
OP, I hope you and your son manage to have a nice holiday. Ignore these ignorant and tactless bystanders. They clearly have no life. You've done absolutely nothing wrong.