Crying over French attitude to my autistic son

[Luckyloubytwo]

We are in France at the moment and having a mostly wonderful time. DS 9 has asd but is usually fairly easy going, quiet, and you wouldn't notice he was different to other children.

However, yesterday and today he has had a huge meltdown in public. When this happens in the UK it is difficult but people generally are understanding and mimd their own business. However, here it seems to bring the whole town to a standstill. People will just stop in their tracks and stare. Today we were in a busy area and it seemed to bring everyone to a halt. We all got very upset back at the car and I just can't stop crying.

I am just feeling so upset at the attitude of the French people towards our son.

@Fifife

The bit about meeting in the middle is wrong. Psychoanalytics blames the mother for autistic traits and likens it to some kind of childhood schizophrenia. Autism cannot be cured nor is it an illness in its self..

but that's not French approach either - and hasn't been for a while.

When I say meet in the middle - I mean the middle of what is agreed approach now.

In the UK, the boundaries between people are well guarded unless you are really close to each other. This would lead to people make sure they don't intervene or even giving an impression of pressurising. And it's different in France. The boundary is very much blurred and really staring at others not a big problem and you KNOW you are being stared at.

I’m guessing most people can tell if someone is staring out of curiosity or disapproval. Just like most people can see sexism or racism particularly if aimed at their child. My ds is probably more severely impacted by his autism than OPs. He’s much older too. I can assure you I can tell when we are not wanted and when the staring is unkind. It’s actually a fairly key skill if you have a disabled child because being exposed to these attitudes is very damaging. I’m lucky I have a large family of well behaved British children who not only can converse and eat at table but also can circle their sibling blocking view and distracting him from dickheads of whatever nationality.

I'm a bit confused as to how the staring "can't be rude because it's cultural". Surely it's just universal common sense that making a spectacle out of someone clearly in distress is unhelpful and cruel.

I worked with a French girl and she always seemed amazed how disabled people/children were

Well aren't you a cuntychops

You should go into counselling or diplomacy.

Sorry... How disabled children were allowed out in public.

How would British react if in the middle of the shop a similar scenario was happening in French.
I’ve seen the looks the polish or Middle Eastern people get here if they dare being anything but quiete

I think we must be lucky living in Britain. I guess you really need an explanation from somebody French about what that was about.

Here in Britain, I was in A and E with my adult son who has autism, recently - accompanied by his two carers - and a woman sitting in front of us , who I, guess, has not being staying here very long, turned round and just stared and stared at him ( before we came out, he had scratched his own face, with his finger nails, whilst agitated about something) . I wanted to say: " Stop fxxxxxx staring at my son: it isn't the theatre", but I thought best not to be rude, and he would not like it, either.

Attitudes towards autism and beliefs about how it originates can be extremely alarming when one hears them. One acquaintance from South Russia told me that, in her region, the view is that God must be displeased with a family, if there is a child with a disability, and you get bad luck for seven generations. Thankfully, education and attitudes in Britain are largely helpful and kind.

I'm a bit confused as to how the staring "can't be rude because it's cultural". Surely it's just universal common sense that making a spectacle out of someone clearly in distress is unhelpful and cruel.

How is looking (or staring if you prefer) making a spectacle out of anyone?

If you heard someone scream in distress, shout obscenities, throw themselves to the ground, cry for help, call out improper lewd behaviour or run into traffic (as examples)

Would you not look? (not suggesting OP's child did this) but it's daft to say people don't look when something out of their normal sphere of understanding is happening - mainly because people care about the welfare of other human beings - and I am happy with that

but it's daft to say people don't look when something out of their normal sphere of understanding is happening - mainly because people care about the welfare of other human beings
it’s fairly likely OP is used to that sort of looking.

"universal common sense" is built up on a common culture. What you think as common sense may not (actually very unlikely) be applicable in a different culture. It's really relative in this context.

Exactly.

Sorry, OP, to hear about their unhelpful behaviour.

I think that this is a useful thread for helping to explain cultural differences. I can understand, now, that staring is not considered rude in some other countries, and I can also appreciate that it might seem ok to stare, to find out what is going on - out of a sense of curiosity. That makes sense, as does the clear explanation about boundaries, and how attitudes differ - eg, to pointing out to people how to behave.

There is quite a lot of autism in the UK, and some in-depth research, which is being shared. Many families are identifying autistic traits in other family members, as well from their child, and understanding that genetics plays a part, and actually gaining insights from others who are affected, just a little bit, and can explain what it is like to feel anxious and what makes things better.

I agree that a cry and a cup of tea will help. There are places you will be seen and welcomed and understood. There are many of us who have been on the receiving end of ignorance and unfair supposition. You will find your people and places.

I went to Disneyland Paris this year and they have changed the way you can access the disability passes. It used to be that a letter from the doctor would be sufficient. Now you have to produce evidence of DLA or PIP which if you know anything about bloody PIP you know it’s a nightmare to get and my daughter who has AsD and Add has just been turned down for it. She loves Disneyland but I’m not sure we can go again as she wouldn’t get help for the access passes.

Pressed return too soon.

Her flapping with excitement in the disability queue got enough stares this year. I am absolutely reluctant to put her through it again.

Must have been distressing for you OP, and yes I think the French are probably somewhat behind in recognising neurodiversity, but what I love about them is their no nonsense attitude to parenting. None of the wishy washy excuse for parenting that you see In the UK.

The US still use terms like handicapped. That surprised me!

@blackpearwhitelilies I disagree with you totally. France is very much 30 odd years behind the times compared to equality in the UK. I’m not saying anywhere is perfect but they are well known to be resistant to change and the culture here between men & women is very dated. I’ve seen sexual harassment here at every workplace I’ve worked in; in the UK here and there but not as blatant and here it is totally socially accepted.

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet maybe depending on where you go. There’s been a big stink this august as SOS Racisme have done loads of undercover investigations and found certain ethnicities being turned away from restaurants and beach clubs etc. I have known several people who I thought were ‘nice’ and then they’ve made outrageously racist remarks infront of me. One in a social setting and 3 at workplaces. I’ve never had that in the UK; I’m sure it exists but nowhere near as openly discussed like I’ve seen here.

France has some good points.. great socialist politics, creative, resistant to negative changes.. like every culture some is easy to like and some parts less so! X

So what.

She in France. It’s relevant. It would be weird if she didn’t mention the location and if people asked she kept quiet to avoid being xenophobic.

Anyway it seems it’s as simple as:

• In France. Autistic DS had a meltdown in supermarket. Loads and loads of people stared for ages. Twice


• Well it may be because France is not very understanding of autistic children because healthcare provision for that is dated, here are some useful sources we can cite.

The end.

A bit like if someone posted about being in the USA And shouted down about abortion - we could then go ‘ah, they hate abortions in the US and provision is non-existent’.

It’s ok that the country and the culture is relevant. And it’s ok to point it out

On reflection @crimesagainstwine I think you're completely over the top.

*Being sensible would be not naming a whole frigging nationality in your original post.

Her OP could have read: "Crying over attitude to my autistic son" - why mention France

She could have said:

"Crying over attitude to my autistic son whilst on holiday"

It didn't**

On the one hand you've got a family who have been so upset that they're stood crying at their car. They're dealing with a harder hand than most daily and they've had two bad experiences. Worse than in the UK.

And on the other you've got someone who is irate because a stranger on the internet is being xenophobic because they haven't written their OP well enough or taken heed of their responses, regardless of how that person might be feeling.

sorry if I just can't get worked up about the 'xenophobia' from OP. I think you're looking really hard.

I

I think staring in France is possibly not seen as such a rude thing? I've never been stared at like that anywhere else (not that I'm particularly well travelled). I was a pregnant 19 year old on my last visit but probably looked around 16/17. The amount of people who thought it was ok to stare at me all the way down the road, then crane their necks and stare at me once we'd passed each other was incredible. It was as though I was an alien. One couple even stood on the pavement to stare at me up close, then went into their flat and hung out of the windows to stare at me some more. I've never known anything like it.

It was very uncomfortable and that along with a couple of other really rude interactions have put me off going back. It must have been a horrible experience. Try not to let it get to you and know that you're doing your best for your child and the staring people are strangers you'll never see again. They probably stare at loads of people, try not to dwell on it.

Because it is being done for a reason, it’s obvious to the person being stared at and it would make them wonder if there was something they should be getting stared at for. Also when you look at society’s most vulnerable groups - disabled people, POC, etc - it would make them feel very unsafe and uncomfortable. Their feelings should matter more than someone’s ‘need’ to curiously keep their eyes on a person

Eh???

What you talking about Willis?

Also OP isn’t in a high horse - she’s been crying over her experience so I imagine she’s feeling very low not very high