Page 12 | Crying over French attitude to my autistic son

Luckyloubytwo · 2022-08-21T16:03:18+00:00

We are in France at the moment and having a mostly wonderful time. DS 9 has asd but is usually fairly easy going, quiet, and you wouldn't notice he was different to other children. However, yesterday and today he has had a huge meltdown in public. When this happens in the UK it is difficult but people generally are understanding and mimd their own business. However, here it seems to bring the whole town to a standstill. People will just stop in their tracks and stare. Today we were in a busy area and it seemed to bring everyone to a halt. We all got very upset back at the car and I just can't stop crying. I am just feeling so upset at the attitude of the French people towards our son.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 21/08/2022 23:15

Aiionwatha · 21/08/2022 22:32

I'm a bit confused as to how the staring "can't be rude because it's cultural". Surely it's just universal common sense that making a spectacle out of someone clearly in distress is unhelpful and cruel.

I have to say I don’t like it when people jump to the ‘cultural’ excuse for poor behaviour and practices

Jourdain11 · 21/08/2022 23:17

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 21/08/2022 23:08

So what.

She in France. It’s relevant. It would be weird if she didn’t mention the location and if people asked she kept quiet to avoid being xenophobic.

Anyway it seems it’s as simple as:

In France. Autistic DS had a meltdown in supermarket. Loads and loads of people stared for ages. Twice

Well it may be because France is not very understanding of autistic children because healthcare provision for that is dated, here are some useful sources we can cite.

The end.

A bit like if someone posted about being in the USA And shouted down about abortion - we could then go ‘ah, they hate abortions in the US and provision is non-existent’.

It’s ok that the country and the culture is relevant. And it’s ok to point it out

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But, to continue that analogy, it would be the equivalent of everyone saying, "Americans are all misogynistic and none of them believe in abortion, you can't get a legal abortion anywhere in the States and they're all small-minded idiots so fuck 'em". I think we all know that's not true. It's also not true that everyone in France is clueless about autism and that there is no provision for autistic children and adults in society. But everyone seems to think it's fine to say "the French are repressed and ignorant" like it's some kind of general fact.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 21/08/2022 23:18

crimesagainstwine · 21/08/2022 22:39

I'm a bit confused as to how the staring "can't be rude because it's cultural". Surely it's just universal common sense that making a spectacle out of someone clearly in distress is unhelpful and cruel.

How is looking (or staring if you prefer) making a spectacle out of anyone?

If you heard someone scream in distress, shout obscenities, throw themselves to the ground, cry for help, call out improper lewd behaviour or run into traffic (as examples)

Would you not look? (not suggesting OP's child did this) but it's daft to say people don't look when something out of their normal sphere of understanding is happening - mainly because people care about the welfare of other human beings - and I am happy with that

I would look whilst offering to help or doing something other than standing there like a lemon.

Why stare? Seriously, what’s the reason for it. Other than being a nosey bastard

5zeds · 21/08/2022 23:18

I sincerely doubt OP is talking about people passively watching her. People DO grimace and make disgusted pouty faces at disabled people, especially if they deem their behaviour unacceptable. It doesn’t only happen in France. OP was obviously reporting something more than she had experienced before.

sunglassesonthetable · 21/08/2022 23:32

sincerely doubt OP is talking about people passively watching her. People DO grimace and make disgusted pouty faces at disabled people, especially if they deem their behaviour unacceptable. It doesn’t only happen in France. OP was obviously reporting something more than she had experienced before.

This.

OP talks about 'seeing to bring the whole town to a standstill' unlike the UK.

Mariposista · 21/08/2022 23:40

Livelovebehappy · 21/08/2022 19:05

All they saw was a child behaving badly. They aren’t to know that your child had autism. It’s human to stop and look when something happens out of the ordinary. They didn’t say anything, just looked, so I think an over reaction by you. You need to have a thick skin when raising a disabled child because there are always going to be situations when you’re judged. Especially in a foreign country where the people are going to behave differently to what you might be used to.

Agree with this. Your kid probably looks like any other 9 year old - he isn’t wearing a badge saying ‘please be understanding I have SN’ (and neither should he). They will have seen it and thought ‘just another British kid being naughty’ (and in this case they were wrong but there are many children who behave appallingly on holiday). As many PP have said, the French have much stricter parenting styles than the British. Nicey nicey parenting is considered crap parenting. I remember my old exchange family years ago who I stayed in touch with for years - the girl had much younger siblings and the parents didn’t put up with tantrums, sulking, whining. Any of that meant instant removal of privileges.

gnilliwdog · 21/08/2022 23:51

That sounds awful, OP. I do hope you and family have been able to feel a bit better and the rest of the holiday can be pleasant. The unpleasantness from those people is no reflection on your son, it's just their own ignorance and small mindedness. One of mine used to have meltdowns, always made worse by an audience. He's grown out of it now but still can't tolerate crowded, noisy places for long. From what I remember of France they are strict with kids and prefer them to be quiet, speaking nicely when spoken to sort of thing. I don't remember anyone showing any awareness of neuro diversity - the word frequently used about emotional children was 'mechant', which can mean 'naughty' but has more negative meanings too. I don't think everyone is judgemental and met many kind, thoughtful people. I wouldn't call it a very child friendly culture, though. Here's hoping you only meet the kinder souls while you are there.

ThomasinaGallico · 21/08/2022 23:59

Slowly they're moving into the 20th century.

Yes, well, exactly. Give it another 100 years or so and who knows, they might catch up. 😁

sunglassesonthetable · 22/08/2022 00:02

God the empathy is overwhelming. @Livelovebehappy and @Mariposista

Marvellousmadness · 22/08/2022 03:27

The French are different in all ways
I wouldnt move there. And especially not with a kid with asd.
They wont change. So you have to.

TomPinch · 22/08/2022 03:31

One of my DCs is autistic.

Clear expectations and rules about behaviour are very very helpful to autistic children if they can easily be followed and don't require intuition, which can be frustrating and exhausting for ASD people of any age who want to do the right thing.

If the rules about public behaviour are clearer in France, that may explain why there are fewer tantrumming children, than in the UK, which is a very indirect, non-confrontational culture where the ability to intuit is very, very important.

Not because badly behaved children are kept out of sight.

TomPinch · 22/08/2022 03:33

Just to add (for it's relevant): if you saw me with my ASD DC you would think me pretty strict, or at least very direct. But it is what works best for my DC who feels happier with clear rules.

Twilightimmortal · 22/08/2022 04:13

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fUNNYfACE36 · 22/08/2022 04:17

I had a similar experience when one of my NT dc had a toddler tantrum.Lots of staring and tutting!

mathanxiety · 22/08/2022 04:20

@gnilliwdog it's very much a child friendly culture. It's not a child centered culture. There is a difference. Difference isn't a bad thing.

Children in France are expected to become part of the family and of wider society. They're expected to develop competence in self care and self feeding and to be aware of the needs of the group. They're not treated as if they were separate from the rest of society, fed separately, fed food that is different from what adults eat, or seen as incapable of learning to conduct themselves with decorum in public and at home. It's actually a culture with a deep respect for children and for their potential.

When it comes to neurodiversity, the UK talks the talk but falls down instead of walking the walk. Take a look at the SN boards here for evidence of piss poor provision in schools, long waits for assessment, and desperate parents.

Funkyblues101 · 22/08/2022 04:20

Crying isn't going to help and definitely won't help with the French attitude towards you. Crying also doesn't "prove" how upset you are, some people cry at anything.

Mollymalone123 · 22/08/2022 04:36

Back in 1999 we took our children to France camping.Our DS is profoundly deafand wore a cochlear implant.We couldn’t eat a meal out without the unbearable staring-I thought surely by now it must be better.I’d already received ignorant comments from people about my son as soon as he wax born and that was the UK.We stayed on a Eurocamp site and found the Dutch and Uk families the kindest.

I’m sorry.It’s tough x

Aiionwatha · 22/08/2022 05:04

Notgoingbacktofuture · 21/08/2022 22:48

"universal common sense" is built up on a common culture. What you think as common sense may not (actually very unlikely) be applicable in a different culture. It's really relative in this context.

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So, in that case, if a French mother was trying to calm her autistic child, and dozens of people stopped in their tracks to stare at them, without offering any kind of help, said mother would feel entirely comfortable with the stares? I find that very hard to believe.

Staring at someone in distress without offering to help is just stupid. Even if it is "cultural", it's a horrible aspect of the culture.

Sockwomble · 22/08/2022 05:55

"If the rules about public behaviour are clearer in France, that may explain why there are fewer tantrumming children, than in the UK,"

A child who has distressed behaviour because they are overwhelmed or have sensory overload isn't tantruming ( or badly behaved). I have to have clear rules with ds because of his intellectual disability as well as autism but that doesn't stop him screaming and hurting himself if something happens that he finds distressing.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 22/08/2022 06:30

Marvellousmadness · 22/08/2022 03:27

The French are different in all ways
I wouldnt move there. And especially not with a kid with asd.
They wont change. So you have to.

A person living in the UK has to change to be more like French people why?

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 22/08/2022 06:33

mathanxiety · 22/08/2022 04:20

@gnilliwdog it's very much a child friendly culture. It's not a child centered culture. There is a difference. Difference isn't a bad thing.

Children in France are expected to become part of the family and of wider society. They're expected to develop competence in self care and self feeding and to be aware of the needs of the group. They're not treated as if they were separate from the rest of society, fed separately, fed food that is different from what adults eat, or seen as incapable of learning to conduct themselves with decorum in public and at home. It's actually a culture with a deep respect for children and for their potential.

When it comes to neurodiversity, the UK talks the talk but falls down instead of walking the walk. Take a look at the SN boards here for evidence of piss poor provision in schools, long waits for assessment, and desperate parents.

See I don’t see how British children are any different - they are also expected it be part of the family aren’t they? And wider society? everyone I know eats with their children every night. I’m not sure why British children are being made out to be feral lunatics on this thread. I’m sure French children do have tantrums in public (well I know because I have seen it).

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 22/08/2022 06:35

Funkyblues101 · 22/08/2022 04:20

Crying isn't going to help and definitely won't help with the French attitude towards you. Crying also doesn't "prove" how upset you are, some people cry at anything.

Jesus, the empathy on here

People cry because it’s a reaction to an emotion not because they think it helps solve anything.

Then I guess a decent human being would know that

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 22/08/2022 06:37

Aiionwatha · 22/08/2022 05:04

So, in that case, if a French mother was trying to calm her autistic child, and dozens of people stopped in their tracks to stare at them, without offering any kind of help, said mother would feel entirely comfortable with the stares? I find that very hard to believe.

Staring at someone in distress without offering to help is just stupid. Even if it is "cultural", it's a horrible aspect of the culture.

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Someone will come on and tell you that French children don’t tantrum in public.

I also think staring without helping is ridiculous and don’t believe for a moment people stare because they try to help. I wish people would just admit that those staring and not helping are just judgey fuckers

Museya15 · 22/08/2022 06:47

Why in the UK does every other child have autism? I'd say it's half DD class. My sister lives in USA, no children in her ds class. Wonder why it's so prevalent in the UK and not in other countries?

Morph22010 · 22/08/2022 06:56

We had the same at Disneyland Paris when my asd son had a meltdown, it’s hard enough in the uk but at least people of either sympathetic or just ignore, I found it was on another level ini France and just adds to the pressure of what’s an already difficult situation. It’s put me off going to France again.