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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can you even call it cheating?

283 replies

SlickShady · 15/08/2022 14:58

Inspired by another trending thread which I didn't want to derail, but actually it's not just that particular thread. How many times do people (usually women) complain their partner was cheating because they had sex outside of the marriage, yet they readily admit there was hardly or no sex within the marriage?

Can you really call that cheating?

I posit that cheating is only when you fulfil your side of the bargain but the other party doesn't. When one partner is always knackered or not in the mood, it's narcissistic to expect the other party just to do without. You can't even call it cheating if they find sex elsewhere.

Sure the favourite response is 'they have the option of leaving before cheating', but why is the onus of leaving on the partner who's deprived rather than the one depriving. Surely if one partner decides to hardly or never have sex anymore, it should be on them to leave.

OP posts:
PinkArt · 16/08/2022 12:29

Why do people feel, for lack of a better word, entitled to enforce celibacy on their partner?
Gosh you really went head first into incel territory. And who doesn't love an incel!
Back to your question. Yes it's cheating. No ifs, no buts. If you are doing something sexual with someone who isn't your partner, without your partner's knowledge and approval it is cheating. Grow up!

BronzeSage · 16/08/2022 12:34

Men on Mumsnet!

whentheraincame · 16/08/2022 12:49

Of course it's not cheating if you both agree beforehand.

Angip3 · 16/08/2022 12:53

If the other person does not know/agree it's cheating, if you have spoken about it and they are in agreement it's not.

What is it with Men and the idea of consent?

WishingICould · 16/08/2022 12:56

The replies on this thread did not disappoint. 😝

whentheraincame · 16/08/2022 12:57

@SlickShady

A real man would discuss the need for sex and the possibility of getting it elsewhere. My husband and I did, and it was an option on the table. We have a strong marriage and it's survived this, because he's an adult who discussed it and we're both mature.

But running off cheating that's not what men do. It's pathetic and needy and cowardly - highly unattractive to women.

Discussing it changed things for the better. If he had run out and done it behind my back it would have been over.

deedledeedledum · 16/08/2022 13:05

whentheraincame · 16/08/2022 12:57

@SlickShady

A real man would discuss the need for sex and the possibility of getting it elsewhere. My husband and I did, and it was an option on the table. We have a strong marriage and it's survived this, because he's an adult who discussed it and we're both mature.

But running off cheating that's not what men do. It's pathetic and needy and cowardly - highly unattractive to women.

Discussing it changed things for the better. If he had run out and done it behind my back it would have been over.

I fear the most common response by the partner no longer wanting sex would be 'no, you can't get it elsewhere' but neither party wants to split up as there is still love and a life together. That's the problem. Forced celibacy changes. Person. One can not switch off just sex. They end up switching off so much emotionality as it is all connected. Then the unwilling partner complain that there are no cuddles anymore.

AryaStarkWolf · 16/08/2022 13:14

deedledeedledum · 16/08/2022 13:05

I fear the most common response by the partner no longer wanting sex would be 'no, you can't get it elsewhere' but neither party wants to split up as there is still love and a life together. That's the problem. Forced celibacy changes. Person. One can not switch off just sex. They end up switching off so much emotionality as it is all connected. Then the unwilling partner complain that there are no cuddles anymore.

Sounds like time for the relationship to end then

deedledeedledum · 16/08/2022 13:16

Aussiegirl123456 · 16/08/2022 12:03

Oh yikes, you’re not one of these men that think recreational sex is a basic human need are you?

Nothing turns a woman on as much as a man with expectations of sex. The desperation is overwhelming and irresistible.

Chances are your lovely wife can’t stand to have your grubby hands on her or she’s tired of having to fake enjoying it with you so she’s just stopped altogether, work on your technique and maybe you can rectify the situation. She probably pleasures herself when you’re not around anyway.

Yes, to answer your question. Seeking sex outside a marriage without your husband or wife’s knowledge or consent is cheating. But you already know this as you’ve already quoted the vows of forsaking all others. Not sure what you’re trying to get from this thread? Justification to cheat? Trolling? Being told you’re obviously shit in bed so the Mrs doesn’t want to have sex with you? An article for a red topped paper? Who knows, but a coherent argument this is not. It’s pretty vile to have your mindset.

This is a nasty response. Yes the OP sounds a little basic but your vitriol and bullying doesn't make you sound any better. You are trying to make out that the only reason women go off sex is that the man is inept and grubby. You know perfectly well that there are a multitude of reasons women go off sex and the biggest cause by far is hormones. Your nasty bullying of men suggesting it is all their fault is just wrong and is just as horrible as anything the OP has said. Millions of living caring giving men out there are dealing with this and you have relegated them all to grubby immature boys who are crap in bed. 👏🏼

Chasingclouds100 · 16/08/2022 13:29

deedledeedledum · 16/08/2022 13:16

This is a nasty response. Yes the OP sounds a little basic but your vitriol and bullying doesn't make you sound any better. You are trying to make out that the only reason women go off sex is that the man is inept and grubby. You know perfectly well that there are a multitude of reasons women go off sex and the biggest cause by far is hormones. Your nasty bullying of men suggesting it is all their fault is just wrong and is just as horrible as anything the OP has said. Millions of living caring giving men out there are dealing with this and you have relegated them all to grubby immature boys who are crap in bed. 👏🏼

I agree! 👏

Lunar270 · 16/08/2022 13:56

ReluctantCourier · 15/08/2022 19:07

Consider any other contract.

if you were employed as a contractor with a term to include exclusive use and you felt you were under utilised by your client, would you be in breach of contract if you, without prior agreement, did a few jobs on the side to keep your skills up?

Yes.

Although the true test of a contractor is the presence of a clause where you are free to contract for multiple clients.

That's exactly how my contracts have worked, in order to be IR35 compliant.

Exclusivity is a big no-no so would never enter into a contract like that.

But I digress as I'm amazed this thread has lasted 9 pages 😂. The OP is completely bonkers!

bathsh3ba · 16/08/2022 13:57

Definitely cheating. If you can't accept the lack of sex, either negotiate an open relationship, or leave. That is the only ethical response. Anything else is deceit and cheating.

SlickShady · 16/08/2022 18:23

I've read through all the replies, sorry that I cannot answer every one separately. As expected, there was a real mix. Some posters assumed I'm a journalist or student - wow that's me rumbled.

Others assumed I'm the man in the hypothetical situation, and proceeded to bully me, because obviously if we're not having sex it must be because I'm bad in bed, not pulling my weight or whatever other shit those posters could throw. Nice.

Then there were the smug, almost mono-syllabic replies, 'yes it is cheating'. Well aren't you brilliant and profound.

But some posters did actually engage with the question, either agreeing or disagreeing, and it is those replies I'll address.

Marriage/cohabitation is by definition a sexual relationship. There was a poster who proposed several other elements of marriage, which might all be true, but to suggest it isn't at its core a sexual relationship is odd.

Perhaps a good analogy would be the definition of woman. For many people 'woman' means strong, empowered, maternal, resourceful, and many other things. But if you had to give a one sentence definition, it would be 'adult human female'.

Ditto for marriage/cohabitation. While it might mean shared goals, legal rights, combined responsibilities etc, the one sentence definition of cohabitation would have to be 'an exclusive sexual relationship', and for marriage it would be 'a (legally) formalised exclusive sexual relationship'.

All other aspects are certainly nice, and enhance the relationship, but at its core marriage/cohabitation is a sexual relationship.

When two people enter into such a relationship, there is an promise, either explicit or implicit, to have an exclusive sexual relationship. I say implicit because there are no vows in cohabitation, and even in marriage, most marriages don't involve the terminology 'forsaking all others'. That's a very specific Western/Christian phrase.

My argument is that when one party refuses to engage sexually, they have reneged on their promise. At the very least this should preclude them from having the right to moral outrage of the other partner reneges on their deal too.

If A never wants to have sex, how can they feel betrayed if B had sex with someone else? What exactly has been betrayed?

In general, the hurt from finding out your partner cheated comes from the feeling that you're not good enough. It's the humiliation of knowing the other partner saw you as lesser, and sought pleasure elsewhere. But how does this compute when you've made a choice not to provide for the other's sexual needs? What exactly was the betrayal, you can't have me but don't you dare go to someone else?

The argument was often brought up that in such a case, the partner who doesn't want to remain sexless should break up before looking elsewhere. But hang on, even if there are no children or complicated finances involved, breaking up has a high emotional cost. How much more so for the one who initiates, as nobody likes conflict. Should one partner be able to force the other to have to initiate a break-up?

How much more so when there are children involved or complex finances. It would seem some posters believe the onus is on the 'willing' partner to either remain celibate or only see their kids every other weekend. Can this be morally right? After all they entered into a marriage/cohabitation in good faith and have been keeping 'their side of the bargain' so to speak. So why is the moral choice to get screwed over, rather than 'cheating'?

It's been suggested that if the 'willing' partner finds sex elsewhere, they are just a coward who wants to have their cake and eat it. But surely the same could be said for the partner who stops having sex. Aren't they the same coward who wants the benefits and stability of the relationship, despite not keeping to the basic definition of marriage?

Now I'm not suggesting that if a woman isn't going at it daily one week post partum, the husband has the right to cheat. That is a ridiculous strawman. But if the frequency - and to an extent quality - unilaterally declines, that is a different issue.

If one partner stops being in the mood ever, the onus should be on them to examine why that is and what they can do to fix the situation. They shouldn't need to wait for the other partner to come crawling and have a chat. Certainly if they wish to remain in the relationship and benefit from it. And if they don't do that, imo they've lost the moral high ground and can't complain or become indignant if the other partner finds it elsewhere.

OP posts:
dribblewibble · 16/08/2022 18:27

SlickShady · 16/08/2022 18:23

I've read through all the replies, sorry that I cannot answer every one separately. As expected, there was a real mix. Some posters assumed I'm a journalist or student - wow that's me rumbled.

Others assumed I'm the man in the hypothetical situation, and proceeded to bully me, because obviously if we're not having sex it must be because I'm bad in bed, not pulling my weight or whatever other shit those posters could throw. Nice.

Then there were the smug, almost mono-syllabic replies, 'yes it is cheating'. Well aren't you brilliant and profound.

But some posters did actually engage with the question, either agreeing or disagreeing, and it is those replies I'll address.

Marriage/cohabitation is by definition a sexual relationship. There was a poster who proposed several other elements of marriage, which might all be true, but to suggest it isn't at its core a sexual relationship is odd.

Perhaps a good analogy would be the definition of woman. For many people 'woman' means strong, empowered, maternal, resourceful, and many other things. But if you had to give a one sentence definition, it would be 'adult human female'.

Ditto for marriage/cohabitation. While it might mean shared goals, legal rights, combined responsibilities etc, the one sentence definition of cohabitation would have to be 'an exclusive sexual relationship', and for marriage it would be 'a (legally) formalised exclusive sexual relationship'.

All other aspects are certainly nice, and enhance the relationship, but at its core marriage/cohabitation is a sexual relationship.

When two people enter into such a relationship, there is an promise, either explicit or implicit, to have an exclusive sexual relationship. I say implicit because there are no vows in cohabitation, and even in marriage, most marriages don't involve the terminology 'forsaking all others'. That's a very specific Western/Christian phrase.

My argument is that when one party refuses to engage sexually, they have reneged on their promise. At the very least this should preclude them from having the right to moral outrage of the other partner reneges on their deal too.

If A never wants to have sex, how can they feel betrayed if B had sex with someone else? What exactly has been betrayed?

In general, the hurt from finding out your partner cheated comes from the feeling that you're not good enough. It's the humiliation of knowing the other partner saw you as lesser, and sought pleasure elsewhere. But how does this compute when you've made a choice not to provide for the other's sexual needs? What exactly was the betrayal, you can't have me but don't you dare go to someone else?

The argument was often brought up that in such a case, the partner who doesn't want to remain sexless should break up before looking elsewhere. But hang on, even if there are no children or complicated finances involved, breaking up has a high emotional cost. How much more so for the one who initiates, as nobody likes conflict. Should one partner be able to force the other to have to initiate a break-up?

How much more so when there are children involved or complex finances. It would seem some posters believe the onus is on the 'willing' partner to either remain celibate or only see their kids every other weekend. Can this be morally right? After all they entered into a marriage/cohabitation in good faith and have been keeping 'their side of the bargain' so to speak. So why is the moral choice to get screwed over, rather than 'cheating'?

It's been suggested that if the 'willing' partner finds sex elsewhere, they are just a coward who wants to have their cake and eat it. But surely the same could be said for the partner who stops having sex. Aren't they the same coward who wants the benefits and stability of the relationship, despite not keeping to the basic definition of marriage?

Now I'm not suggesting that if a woman isn't going at it daily one week post partum, the husband has the right to cheat. That is a ridiculous strawman. But if the frequency - and to an extent quality - unilaterally declines, that is a different issue.

If one partner stops being in the mood ever, the onus should be on them to examine why that is and what they can do to fix the situation. They shouldn't need to wait for the other partner to come crawling and have a chat. Certainly if they wish to remain in the relationship and benefit from it. And if they don't do that, imo they've lost the moral high ground and can't complain or become indignant if the other partner finds it elsewhere.

No.

The person who isn't happy with the lack of sex should end the relationship before they shag anyone else.

That's how it should be.

No cheating. No shagging behind the back of your partner/spouse.

Kashmirsilver · 16/08/2022 18:52

BaileySharp · 15/08/2022 20:36

It's 100% cheating. You make a vow when you marry and one of those isn't usually have sex with partner even if you don't want to. If there is a gebuine reason why not such as il health, well sticking together through sickness is in the vows! It's worth trying to resolve the cause of lack of sex (if one is tired all the time could other partner be doing more to help alleviate the tiredness?). If sex is so important to you that masturbating won't do to the point you want to source sex elsewhere then your marriage is over and you should leave

Masturbation is NOT a replacement for sex between 2 people.
One is a purely selfish act.
The other is 2 people sharing themselves unselfishly.

Reading the posts people misunderstand the concept of sex and its function. There seems to be a whole plethora of whataboutery of why sex isn't a key component of a relationship.

MissStress · 16/08/2022 22:22

dribblewibble · 16/08/2022 18:27

No.

The person who isn't happy with the lack of sex should end the relationship before they shag anyone else.

That's how it should be.

No cheating. No shagging behind the back of your partner/spouse.

Agree - because duplicitous and deceitful behaviour is most hurtful, not thinking someone else is above you. You’d have to be pretty basic to think in such a fashion when the partner in this scenario is the lying scheming arsehole.

The main problem with the OP is they think they’re much cleverer than they actually are.

Even starting from an incorrect baseline of exclusivity being a pre-requisite of the marital contract when there are many in open and swinging relationships who can ALSO be cheated upon. And who also break up due to BETRAYAL of their trust and boundaries within the relationship.

These rules are agreed within each relationship; if one person changes the rules (both in terms of no sex within, and no sex without I.e. both positions in this hypothetical union) then if either party doesn’t like this, then they leave the relationship.

The person not having sex is being very upfront about the change in rules. If the person wanting sex doesn’t agree with this (understandable) then the thing to do is discuss seeking sex elsewhere and agreeing new rules. If no new rules can be agreed, the relationship should end.

To adapt to the change in rule by changing the game (ie from a trusted partnership to morphing into a duplicitous gollum) is not okay 😆

So generally not very well thought out and over-articulated as a position.

(for context, I have always had a v.high sex drive and have never - to my knowledge- been cheated on, but this is such a ridiculous over-engineered stance of OP it’s absolutely obvious that they’re talking utter bollocks).

MightyFishwife · 16/08/2022 22:43

Men are so fucking obvious 😂💩

Aussiegirl123456 · 17/08/2022 00:17

MightyFishwife · 16/08/2022 22:43

Men are so fucking obvious 😂💩

Yep

KettrickenSmiled · 17/08/2022 12:24

The main problem with the OP is they think they’re much cleverer than they actually are.
😂😂😂

So generally not very well thought out and over-articulated as a position.
👏👏👏

Well said @MissStress

The choice of language was telling too. betraying a mindset that feels it has a "right" to sex, & that a partner ought to provide it, or be viewed as deficient, & withholding a commodity that OP can now feel free to seek elsewhere

Also the outraged denials of masculinity & the umbrage taken at the supposition that men who don't know how to chat up & satisfy their partners are the ones most likely to find themselves sexually rejected ...

SaggyBlinders · 17/08/2022 13:31

If one partner stops being in the mood ever, the onus should be on them to examine why that is and what they can do to fix the situation. They shouldn't need to wait for the other partner to come crawling and have a chat. Certainly if they wish to remain in the relationship and benefit from it. And if they don't do that, imo they've lost the moral high ground and can't complain or become indignant if the other partner finds it elsewhere.

Maybe, just maybe, the reason your wife doesn't want to have sex with you is because you're probably an entitled male chauvinist, and she's finally seen the light?

Or maybe she's found a better shag elsewhere?

Angip3 · 17/08/2022 13:45

"My argument is that when one party refuses to engage sexually, they have reneged on their promise. At the very least this should preclude them from having the right to moral outrage of the other partner reneges on their deal too."

Then the WHOLE contract is void and the obvious solution is the dissolution of the marriage, it is NOT a license to lie, Man up and give her the opportunity to make a new life that is not a lie.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/08/2022 14:45

How much more so when there are children involved or complex finances. It would seem some posters believe the onus is on the 'willing' partner to either remain celibate or only see their kids every other weekend.

I don't think there's any doubt left you're speaking as a man....... A women generally wouldn't settle for seeing their child every other weekend

endofline · 17/08/2022 16:00

@SlickShady

Look OP, there is nothing wrong with you finding your marriage unsustainable without sex. You need to tell your partner that it is unsustainable for you without sex and see where that leads (hopefully to a mutually agreed divorce).

There are no mental contortions here where you can avoid that conversation, then shift the blame to your partner, have an affair and blame your partner for the pain this causes them when they find out (or, more despicably, deny them the right to be upset in the first place as its 'all their fault', which you clearly state is your position).

I see you are also seeking to blame your partner for you 'only seeing your kids every other weekend' in a divorce. Well that would be your choice if you wanted see your kids that little. Perhaps your partner does all the child related work now, and you don't really want to have to suddenly take on 50% of this after a divorce. That's not justification for an affair either though is it? And certainly not for an affair you are blaming on your partner.

KettrickenSmiled · 17/08/2022 16:03

Bang on the money, @AryaStarkWolf & @endofline

Sartre · 17/08/2022 16:04

Yes, it’s obviously cheating. If you’re in a relationship with someone and you sleep with someone else behind their back, that’s the literal definition of ‘cheating’. You are always free to leave an unfulfilling relationship at any point, you don’t have to stay if you’re deeply unsatisfied with the amount of sex you have. Being knackered isn’t narcissistic either.

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