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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Can you even call it cheating?

283 replies

SlickShady · 15/08/2022 14:58

Inspired by another trending thread which I didn't want to derail, but actually it's not just that particular thread. How many times do people (usually women) complain their partner was cheating because they had sex outside of the marriage, yet they readily admit there was hardly or no sex within the marriage?

Can you really call that cheating?

I posit that cheating is only when you fulfil your side of the bargain but the other party doesn't. When one partner is always knackered or not in the mood, it's narcissistic to expect the other party just to do without. You can't even call it cheating if they find sex elsewhere.

Sure the favourite response is 'they have the option of leaving before cheating', but why is the onus of leaving on the partner who's deprived rather than the one depriving. Surely if one partner decides to hardly or never have sex anymore, it should be on them to leave.

OP posts:
Annabananna1 · 15/08/2022 15:11

If you have sex with someone outside of the relationship, without the other person agreeing then it's cheating.

If you're not getting enough sex in your relationship talk to your partner about it and lay out the options.
A) have more sex together
B) find sex elsewhere / open relationship
C) separate

But it should be a conversation. Unless you're at the end and are ending it.

Dogscanteatonions · 15/08/2022 15:11

Hmmmm... I wonder why your partner has stopped sleeping with you? 🤔

WishingICould · 15/08/2022 15:11

Of course it's cheating because it's lying. If you're in a sexless marriage and don't want to be, then you either end the marriage or negotiate 'new terms' for an open relationship. You don't lie to your partner, sneak about and sleep with someone else.

SleeplessInEngland · 15/08/2022 15:12

Of course it's still cheating.

But certainly if one side of relatsionship enforces celibacy on the other without good reason then that's pretty shit too. But a different discussion.

HappyDad2DS · 15/08/2022 15:13

Well, I would think that if the issue of no sex comes up, then a mutually acceptable framework needs to be set up. If it's agreed in advance, it's not cheating. Some of my friends have done that.

But yes, I do agree that the emphasis should be on the one not living up to the marriage deal. So I guess you're just going to have to go in there and negotiate.

Peanutbuttericecream1 · 15/08/2022 15:13

I hope she takes you to the cleaners

Fairislefandango · 15/08/2022 15:14

Of course it's still cheatingConfused. Cheating on a spouse means having sex or an intimate relationship with another person behind their back. The fact that you've just made up a new definition for 'cheating' doesn't make it valid.

If someone is in a sexless marriage and doesn't want to be, surely the only reasonable response is to discuss it and then end the marriage if no solution can be reached? Not to go off and shag someone else!

Also, what's with the constant labelling of selfishness or other behaviour people don't like as 'narcissistic'?

MaybeIWillFuckOffThen · 15/08/2022 15:14

gets popcorn

Well goodness gracious me this will be messy.

YABVU obviously.

Sure the favourite response is 'they have the option of leaving before cheating', but why is the onus of leaving on the partner who's deprived rather than the one depriving. Surely if one partner decides to hardly or never have sex anymore, it should be on them to leave.

No, the onus is on the person who is not happy with the status quo of the relationship. The amount of sex within a marriage is a fluid situation based on how much sex both parties feel like/are capable of having. At certain points in peoples' (usually women's) lives they will want more or less sex, this will fluctuate on the basis of a huge number of factors (the obvious ones for mothers being pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, and the exhaustion of raising early years children).

Anyone who gets married with the cast iron expectation of a fuck at least every other day on the dot is frankly deluded. It is POSSIBLE, I'm not saying it isn't, for that to be some couples' constant, but I am saying that in the same way one says 'in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer' it is implied you get married to the person with an understanding they may change, and that (assuming those changes are not 'into an abusive arsehole') you will both work to accommodate them in the relationship.

It is perfectly acceptable for people to go off sex for a while at times. 9 months pregnant in the blazing heat? Fuck off with that. 2 months PP leaking milk and locchia and tears from every orifice with a baby attached to you 24/7? Uuuuh, fuck off again. 18 months into raising a child that has never slept for more than 3 hours at a time and your partner can't or won't take any of the night wakings? I guess that gives them lots of time alone in bed with their hand.

Sex, with a particular person of your choice, spouse or not, is not a human right or a marital one. There is no set amount of sex which, if you drop below it, entitles you to lie to your spouse, break your vows and endanger their health.

You can, of course, leave a marriage for any reason you like. Including lack of sex.

But there is no promise, explicit or implicit, to provide your spouse with a set amount of sex at regular intervals. No promise has been broken in reducing or even ceasing to have sex.

But it's nice to have this insight into the reasoning of the cowardly selfish men who cheat.

Original poster
SlickShady · 15/08/2022 15:14

gwenneh · 15/08/2022 15:10

You don't classify stopping intimate relations, the thing that differentiates marriage from friendship, as 'wanting something different'?

Marriage isn't differentiated from friendship by sex, so no, I do not classify stopping intimate relations as wanting something different.

What would you say is the thing that differentiates marriage/cohabitation from a strong friendship, at least at its core, and when everything works as it should?

OP posts:
MaybeIWillFuckOffThen · 15/08/2022 15:15

You don't classify stopping intimate relations, the thing that differentiates marriage from friendship, as 'wanting something different'?

Please explain where in the marriage vows there is a promise of a set amount of sex at a set regularity? anywhere? There is however a promise to keep only unto the spouse.

Peanutbuttericecream1 · 15/08/2022 15:17

HappyDad2DS · 15/08/2022 15:13

Well, I would think that if the issue of no sex comes up, then a mutually acceptable framework needs to be set up. If it's agreed in advance, it's not cheating. Some of my friends have done that.

But yes, I do agree that the emphasis should be on the one not living up to the marriage deal. So I guess you're just going to have to go in there and negotiate.

Another man.
when I read my marriage vows I don’t recall anything in the deal about frequency of sex?????
there was stuff about for richer for poorer, sickness and in health…. But can’t remember committing to sex three times a week.

10HailMarys · 15/08/2022 15:18

Of course it's cheating. Even if a relationship was the weirdly transactional arrangement you believe it to be, it would still be cheating. If you're not happy with the amount of sex in your marriage, then either a) address that in a sensitive way and have a bit of patience and kindness about it, b) have a wank or c) end the marriage. Don't go and shove your willy into someone else.

With regards to point A above, you'll notice that there are many threads on Mumsnet in which someone's husband complains that there isn't enough sex in the marriage, but then repeatedly tries to initiate it by groping their wife when she's trying to scrub baby sick off a jumper or something, smacking her bum when she's on the phone to the car insurance people, while not being remotely affectionate in any way unless he wants to hump her. Then said husband tries to claim that this is an attempt to make her feel sexy and desired, and thinks he's done his bit to rekindle the passion and assumes the rest is up to her.

Also you don't understand what 'narcissistic' means.

MrsU2022 · 15/08/2022 15:19

Give your head a wobble, this is rather misogynistic

This implies that its the woman's 'fault' if the man has sex with someone else (which is DEFINITELY cheating btw)

If the man or woman isn't satisfied with the sex life then he should say something instead of doing the dirty - cowardly and cuntish to be unfaithful

I hate cheats, no excuse whatsoever

If you're unhappy, leave. don't shag someone else behind your partners back

It's really not that hard

Only exception is if it's an open relationship...which I cannot quite comprehend, but each to their own

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 15/08/2022 15:20

So you advocate people being coerced into sex under threat of cheating. That'll do wonders for their relationship.

10HailMarys · 15/08/2022 15:20

This has got Fathers 4 Justice written all over it

Original poster
SlickShady · 15/08/2022 15:20

@MaybeIWillFuckOffThen

Thanks for your long reply. You're quite right that marriage isn't a promise of sex on demand or whatever, but marriage/cohabitation can be - at least partly - defined as a sexual relationship. Barring that aspect, it lacks one of the fundamentals of marriage.

I guees what I really want to tease out is the indignation. In so many cases you'll have one partner (usually the woman) admitting that she was rarely up to sex, yet she still feels betrayed and extremely hurt when she finds out her husband sought it elsewhere? Why? Surely you can't expect the other party to be celibate, much less so feel hurt if they sorted themselves out. Why do people feel, for lack of a better word, entitled to enforce celibacy on their partner?

OP posts:
MrsU2022 · 15/08/2022 15:21

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 15/08/2022 15:20

So you advocate people being coerced into sex under threat of cheating. That'll do wonders for their relationship.

Literally...sounds like a humongous red flag to me!

gwenneh · 15/08/2022 15:21

What would you say is the thing that differentiates marriage/cohabitation from a strong friendship, at least at its core, and when everything works as it should?

Mutual goals, a shared responsibility towards each other's immediate and long-term welfare, legal responsibilities, shared decision-making, emotional connection & vulnerability for a start.

There are plenty of places where the Venn diagram of friendships and marriages don't overlap. Sex is just one of them and it's a fairly superficial one at that.

Hereforaccountability · 15/08/2022 15:22

It would be cruel and gaslighting to tell someone they've "cheated" by not wanting as much sex as the other person wants.

Sound like messing with their head.

gwenneh · 15/08/2022 15:22

Barring that aspect, it lacks one of the fundamentals of marriage.

Sex is not fundamental to a marriage.

LizzieSiddal · 15/08/2022 15:23

Well as the good Judge Rinder says, You can’t argue with stupid.

Bekind2yourself · 15/08/2022 15:23

SlickShady · 15/08/2022 15:07

Assume what you will it's a free country. I made an argument, a coherent one imo. Do your disagree? Why?

Show quote history

🤔 🙄

Original poster
SlickShady · 15/08/2022 15:23

MaybeIWillFuckOffThen · 15/08/2022 15:15

You don't classify stopping intimate relations, the thing that differentiates marriage from friendship, as 'wanting something different'?

Please explain where in the marriage vows there is a promise of a set amount of sex at a set regularity? anywhere? There is however a promise to keep only unto the spouse.

I think that goes without saying. The promise is to forsake all others but not be forsaken yourself by your partner. Why should there be an expectation of the other party remaining celibate?

OP posts:
Topgub · 15/08/2022 15:23

Not enough eye rolls

neverbeenskiing · 15/08/2022 15:24

Why do people feel, for lack of a better word, entitled to enforce celibacy on their partner?

There isn't much of an Incel community on Mumsnet, OP. You'd probably feel more at home on Reddit.