Can you even call it cheating?

[SlickShady]

Inspired by another trending thread which I didn't want to derail, but actually it's not just that particular thread. How many times do people (usually women) complain their partner was cheating because they had sex outside of the marriage, yet they readily admit there was hardly or no sex within the marriage?

Can you really call that cheating?

I posit that cheating is only when you fulfil your side of the bargain but the other party doesn't. When one partner is always knackered or not in the mood, it's narcissistic to expect the other party just to do without. You can't even call it cheating if they find sex elsewhere.

Sure the favourite response is 'they have the option of leaving before cheating', but why is the onus of leaving on the partner who's deprived rather than the one depriving. Surely if one partner decides to hardly or never have sex anymore, it should be on them to leave.

Be very careful how you apply this wonderfu logic, you are on the cusp of losing your family, half your wealth and the chance to be called a good father.

By your logic, no sex means a free pass to go with another woman.
By the same logic, same horrible selfish man gets replaced by new man who is a much better father to his children, keeping the wife satified at home, in body and mind.

Quick sticks crack on so she can have a better life, I bet she can't wait, I bet she's wanted rid for ages.

You're a dud and she must be kicking herself for picking you.

I always enjoy those stories where a man persuades a reluctant wife to open the marriage, because he has his eye on someone and thinks it's the way to shaggy them legitimately. Intended affair partner turns him down, but wife has a wild time tearing her way through a series of willing men.

Shag, not shaggy. DYAC.

At least half of why I would kick my DH out for being intimate with another woman is the lying and betrayal in order to get the sex. If a man is lying and hiding the sex it's because he knows it's wrong to do so rather than initiate a split.

Well, Bro, it depends. Your post history sends out clear "I don't understand consent" vibes, but previous posters have already told you that.

But let's forget about you for the moment and talk about how we know if a relationship is or is not exclusive.

If you're in a genuinely open relationship where both parties are happy to have sex, romance, life commitment, etc. with others, then have at it - although of course there's no one size fits all so there are mutually agreed-upon boundaries and if you violate or lie, there's no excuse and your partner will dump you (or vice versa).

If you have some kind of explicet agreement with a partner about sexual fidelity then yes, it's "cheating" to break that agreement.

If you have an agreement with some kind of partner that you're "together" in some way but not sexually (or emotionally, romantically, or whatever) exclusive, then only the two of you know when or if someone has violated the line on that agreement.

If you're just casually having sex with someone and you happen to also be having it with other people, then use your common sense: does the other person know what you're doing? You're not required to tell all, but pick up a culturally specific clue: maybe in any ongoing relationship, it's good to talk and agree about these things.

If your partner's a woman and you're a man, there are a whole host of extra things that come into play like risk of pregnancy, variable vulnerability to sexually transmitted diseases, etc. that everyone involved should be considering. I'm sure you knew that, though.

If you are not happy in your marriage tell the person you are married to. Then work a way through it. Do the person you're married to a favour and give them the option to get out - for all you know they feel the same as you.

Yabu
if your reasoning was fair then part of the marriage vows would involve a promise to have sex at least once a week (or whatever)
In reality, life causes people's libido to vary. For example, if you've just had a bereavement or a baby, you may not feel like having sex. To fulfill a promise to have sex (say once a week) , you'd have to never be sick, never be apart longer than a week etc. I never want sex when I have my period so would need that as an exception to any sex obligation lol.

It's not unreasonable to want sex or not want sex. If you know that your partner has a wildly different libido then you can choose not to marry them, have an open marriage or remain single so you can have sex with lots of different people. If you're the partner with low libido then you should seek medical advice about whether it's something fixable as it sometimes is. If you're the person with a higher libido then it's worth looking into what you can do to help a partner be less stressed. For example if your partner does most of the childcare and housework, they are unlikely to feel as horny as someone whose partner does 50% of the childcare and housework.

I do think a sexless marriage is likely a dying one and there is frequently a head in the sand attitude to that on MN. A belief partners should just put up with it and women who don’t want sex shouldn’t feel like they have a bit of an obligation to try and change that if they want their marriage to last. Which I think is unrealistic and unreasonable.

But that doesn’t mean that seeking sex elsewhere isn’t cheating. A sexless marriage is not deceptive, it means both partners know what’s going on even if they don’t like it. Having an affair (or one night stands, or using prostitutes, etc) deceives your partner - that’s why it’s called cheating.

What does your editor think?

I suppose it depends why sex stopped. Perhaps the man became angry, aggressive, said cruel things, started throwing items and smashing things, then demanded sex. Maybe he is the cause of the libido loss. Then he cheats. And it's all her fault?

Sex is a privilege, not a right.

It’s cheating because you are lying to your partner and deceiving them. The clue is for in the name ‘cheat’ really.

it’s a valid argument that a relationship can become unsustainable if one partner no longer wants sex and the other does.

But if one partner believes that there is emotional and sexual monogamy ( whether or not sex takes place) whilst the other is secretly in a relationship with an affair partner, then yes, that is obviously cheating.

🤣

@SlickShady and the purpose of sex is to be enjoyable, if it's not enjoyable why would the other person do it. In your argument, tge women could go and sex elsewhere because she doesn't want the sex on offer as it's not enjoyable, or should she do it anyway?

Do you know what I like? Fudge. No idea how to make though. Presumably sugar and cream is involved. Any ideas?

My partner doesn't owe me sex. If they stop wanting it, they're not "withholding" or "depriving" because I'm not owed that act from them. They haven't done anything wrong to me, unless they decide to frame their decision as an attack, which is a different issue entirely.

My partner is not responsible for my needs. It's not "on them" to leave. If I'm not happy I have to figure out a way to respond to that - deliberately breaking a promise to them by cheating (with all the emotional and health risks associated with it) is not a good response.

OP, you think it's clever to use "I'm so objective" language to make a really bad argument, but it's not.

I’m looking into my crystal ball… woooooo….

I see a man…

Feeling guilty…

Because his wife and he have different sex drives…

There’s a hint in his thinking that marriage somehow means entitlement or promise of sex… it doesn’t.

He is thinking that if he sleeps with someone else to satisfy his urges, it isn’t really cheating because she isn’t offering it anyway…

He wants to assuage his conscience by looking for female validation of his feelings here…

But alas, no…it’s cheating.

Woooooo…..the orb is dimming…..

Cheats just don't have the emotional strength to get up and walk away for someone else BECAUSE they are only in any of their relationships for their OWN gain, anyone else's feelings matter not one shiny shit to them, never did, never will.

People in open/ negotiated relationships (real one's, not just where one partner has lost all boundaries and self esteem to hang on to something they never had) are continually dealing with emotions, realities and working at things.

Surely it's down to the other partner in the relationship to define? Otherwise we might as well ask thieves to decide when stealing might be excusable and to hell with the views of the victims.

For me cheating, in this context, is all about the lack of honesty and respect. My wife and I have barely had intercourse for eight years due to a combination of menopause tanking her libido and an operation to correct a prolapse making intercourse anything between uncomfortable and downright painful for her. Personally, I still have a strong sex drive but she doesn't so it is what it is. Not ideal for me but I would never ask her to open the marriage as I don't want anyone else and I know it would hurt her deeply. I sure as hell wouldn't go elsewhere behind her back and would not expect any sympathy or forgiveness if I did.

PS, why not just have a wank and think about your wife when you’re doing it?

Please explain where in the marriage vows there is a promise of a set amount of sex at a set regularity?

This.

If you have sex with someone who is not your husband/wife/partner without permission then it is cheating.

It's pretty straightforward

Or is that toffee? I much prefer fudge.

If a man/woman is feeling celibate within a marriage (and it hasn't been previously agreed upon) I'd suggest they were the ones not fulfilling their side of the 'bargain' somewhere within the marriage.

A supportive, kind, understanding partner who shoulders half of the responsibilities and half of the drudgery is going to having sex regularly with a willing spouse.

Not getting it? Look to yourself and your behaviour rather than this childish idea!

Yes it’s cheating. The one doing the cheating may consider it more acceptable, ie they would argue they are only cheating because they aren’t getting it at home. But it’s still cheating..

Of course it’s cheating.

If someone is unhappy with the amount of sex then they need to communicate it with their partner and if things don’t change they need to leave and find someone more compatible.

In 90% of all situations like this the partner who is unhappy with the lack of sex is the one that has let themselves go, aren’t taking care of their hygiene or doing something that turns their partner off.

I mean, would anyone actually trash an otherwise good marriage, happy kids, good partnership, stable life, but then declare sex to be more important any of that, sell the house and send your kids to live in a mold ridden bedsit, wreck their mental health, destroy your once beloved spouse, tell the parents you just really need sex more than your family, and, what, start sitting in bars hoping someone's going to find your impulsiveness attractive?

People post 'no sex, end the marriage! divorce time! Sex is a duty! Have it even if you hate it! Have it if it hurts! Go to the doctor, those fountains of knowledge about gynecological matters, psychological distress, depression, domestic abuse and exhaustion! Fuck your spouse, fuck the kids, kick me out and get some sex, because that's all that matters' and it seems a bit, well... Over the top. You might end your marriage and still find no one wants to have sex with you.