To be sick of seeing "cool girl" or "cool wife" used as an insult

[11GrumpsaGrumping]

I have been on a few threads recently where some posters have been really quite cruel to other posters, including me, for having different boundaries and preferences than they do.

The terms "cool girl" or "cool wife" are slung at them, with the implication made (sometimes directly) that said "cool" person doesn't really do/feel/enjoy the way the say they do, and are just trying to be cool.

Everyone has different boundaries, experiences, cultural influences, relationships, ages, backgrounds, etc- why is it not okay for one person to find for example strippers okay within their marriage and others not to, without the former being accused of being part of the "cool wives brigade".

Is it really that hard for people to understand and accept that we all have different boundaries and lines in the sand?

It really makes me angry and I find it just another way in which woman choose to tear other women down, when what we need to do is support one another.

I think there's two extremes and neither are right.

There's the complete opposite of the 'cool wife' who gets angry if their parents even so much as mention another woman's name.

And there's the trying too hard 'cool wife' who is okay with things I just don't understand, and to be honest I doubt the commitment to the marriage/relationship for being okay with certain things.

I'm guessing this is bought on by the lap dance post.

I think of myself as fairly easy going. My boyfriend has many female friends, he will go out with them, show friendly affection towards them, he enjoys their company and they bring him a lot of joy. I do not have an ounce of jealousy or worry when he has plans with them.

But the thought of him sat there, with an erection, naked woman's boobs in his face and getting sexual gratification of another woman makes me feel sick. To me it undoes the years of commitment between us. And to push that this is okay as its 'just what guys do on stag do's' isn't ok, it's gross.

Unless you have some pre discussed open marriage type thing then maybe thats different. But in a committed loving monogamous relationship, I don't think any man or woman should enjoy another person's body in the flesh sexually or romantically.

Being a doormat so people like you is just not good for your mental health.

But insulting someone because they are heavily conditioned to put others needs first is a bit much. It's easy to forget it's not a chosen behaviour

Quite.

All those phrases, including 'Cool Girl', are ways to enforce orthodoxy. There's a faction here that are preoccupied with keeping everyone's toes firmly on the line.

Of course, they drew the line.

The implication is that you are part of the patriarchy but can't see it.

For example -

Liberal feminist: 'It's her choice to be a lapdancer - and choice is what feminism is all about.'
Feminist: 'Choice is not what feminism is about. Absolute equality for women is what feminism is about. Choices don't happen in a vacuum - they are limited by the social structures we live in. By pretending that this is not so, you are preventing women from understanding this fact and perpetuating sex inequality.'

Patriarchy (and all structural power) must always co-opt some members of the disempowered class to police the system from within the ranks. The co-opted get special privileges (in this case, the implication is that male validation is the special prize.)

Could also substitute 'liberal feminist' or 'choice feminist' ( or 'no feminist' in my book).

I have some sympathy because it's very hard to see the air that we all breathe. And to admit that you / all of us are being abused to one degree or another. But not that much sympathy, after many decades of debating this.

One useful thought experiment is to substitute a nationality (or age group or race) for 'women' and imagine how you would view the society in which one nationality did all the domestic shitwork, all the childcare (and suffered the consequent loss of economic status and thus agency), and whose ability to consent to sex was often trampled over by the accepted 'needs' of the ruling nationality, or removed entirely by economic circumstances which favour the ruling nationality.

No I don't think we should support all women just because they are women. Theresa May and Priti Patel are two politicians who've done unspeakably cruel things. I don't support them.

But re the cool girl / wife thing I do genuinely think people have different boundaries which some might find odd but doesn't make it unhealthy.

genius.com/Gillian-flynn-gone-girl-cool-girl-monologue-book-annotated

I recognise the behaviours she describes but I also think its over used as an insult

However I personally think porn , strip clubs , the "sex industry" harms all women. I won't call women who think these are fun / "empowering" "a choice" , insert cliché of choice -"cool girls".

I will however criticise such misguided and dangerous views and certainly won't support women who hold these views just because they are women.

I agree with you @TheLassWiADelicateAir and it's amazing how defensive they get when challenged or criticised.

You see I do think the lack of concern about the damage the "sex industry" does to all women is unhealthy and damaging to all women.

It's actually this thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4609773-porn-culture-has-led-to-women-suffering-injuries-during-sex?page=1

OP has got her arse out because someone said "you're so cool" - I think its been deleted now

@BronwenFrideswide 100% agree. My biggie is that so many things are sexualised these days that there seems very little room for romance or build up

It got to the point with regards to porn and secrecy that I thought maybe it was just me having an issue - had a chat with a few friends, out of 6 of us varying from 37 to 62 in age, only 2 wouldn't have an issue with it in a long term live in relationship - and 1 of those said she would have an issue if it was more than a couple of times a week at most.

If both people in a relationship are ok with it and it's not all a big secret then I'm fine with that , but so often this isn't the case. Same goes with most sex industry stuff !

OP has got her arse out because someone said "you're so cool" - I think its been deleted now

Fab! Nuanced discussion 👍🏻

A bit of this, it’s kind of lazy.

But it’s like anything, sometimes the accused might be defending the indefensible, or telling another poster they can’t have different boundaries.

Or sometimes they are being totally reasonable and the person calling them that is rude or a nutter that checks their husband’s phone hourly, or has a lot of internalised misogyny.

Overall I just think you need to be robust and call it when you think it’s bollocks. This is a debate forum so there will be disagreement, and I don’t think women supporting women means they need to agree or always Be Kind.

@WalkingOnTheCracks last post is a classic DARVO. It uses progressive language (language developed in order to fight inequality) and turns it on those who are pointing out that women are oppressed and abused. It claims that those who are pointing out structural abuse are actually the abusers - that the very act of naming abuse is abusive to those who are abused.

It's nuts; it has an agenda, and the agenda is to make sure women STFU by spreading uncertainty and confusion.

It's also the language of Trump, Bolsonaro, and other populist 'radical' individualist ideologues/demagogues.

In pretty much any discussion about harm to women, some random woman will pop up to announce she doesn't see a problem. If you don't like the term 'cool wives' feel free to think of an alternative you can stomach.

But we don't have to support everything women do, and a thing is not feminist just because its a woman doing it.

Yanbu to not want to be insulted by strangers on the internet, but yabvu to want others to never use these terms at all. They’re very useful. The first time I read the term ‘cool wife’ was in Gone Girl and I recognised so much of what she was saying. I’ve been a cool girl - in my teens / early twenties I was up for anything and would insist I loved it! As I got older I realised how often I’d done stuff I didn’t really want to do because I was lonely, insecure, and trying desperately to please men. From drinking beer (yuk), to anal sex, to body piercing, to being ‘cool’ about porn despite its exploitation and consequences, to wearing ‘sexy’ underwear that’s uncomfortable and actually turns me off… As I’ve matured I’m sad about what the young woman I was thought she ought to do, and the self delusion involved. ‘Cool girl’ as a label helps me understand what was happening to me.

This

The thread I have seen where "cool wives" comes in seem to go along these lines. But say you were to use another example:

OP - Am I unreasonable for not liking ice cream.

Poster 2 - I don't like ice cream either

Poster 3 - I'm not bothered either way, I have it occasionally when I'm in the mood, but you're not being unreasonable not to like it.

Poster 4 - I love ice cream! I don't know why you have a problem with ice cream!

Poster 4 is missing the point of the thread and seems to be have some sort of underlying motive in marketing the positives of ice-cream. The OP doesn't care about that. Other posters notice, feel that the OPs boundaries are being ignored and sweep in to fix it. That's what I see anyway a lot of the time. Poster 4 believes that they are being insulted for given their opinion/sharing their lifestyle and counter attacks. Others join in. The OP gets ignored.

If we all just took more time to listen and less time to defend what doesn't need to be defending, then Mumsnet would be a hell of a lot nicer.

What's DARVO? @WinterDeWinter

Which comment did you mean?

@sunglassesonthetable
"All those phrases, including 'Cool Girl', are ways to enforce orthodoxy. There's a faction here that are preoccupied with keeping everyone's toes firmly on the line.

Of course, they drew the line."

Excellent post

What do you mean by DARVO?

Judging people that avail themselves of the sex industry as it currently stands is a perfectly valid position. As is judging those who are bystanders to it

At this point I add as I always do, that I hate the fondness posters on the Feminist Boards have for the words 'wimmin' and 'menz'. They are incredibly patronising and you don't really see these terms anywhere else but on there.
As in, 'Wimmin wanting the vote '. They are clearly being sarcastic and think they are being edgy referring to 'wimmin'.
I don't get it.

In the grand scheme of things, calling someone a cool girl is a lot less hurtful than defending choking, rough sex, trafficking, rape as those who 'enjoy' those activities, or don't mind porn, would like to do.

DARVO is an acronym - deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender. Its something abusers do when called out.

Quick to google @sunglassesonthetable but from Wikipedia
DARVO is an acronym for "deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender". It refers to a reaction that alleged perpetrators of wrongdoing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior.[1] Some researchers and advocates have indicated that it can be as a common manipulation strategy of psychological abusers.[2][3][4] An abuser (or alleged abuser) denies the abuse ever took place, attacks the person that alleged abuse (often the victim) for attempting to hold the abuser (or alleged abuser) accountable for their actions, and claims that they are actually the victim in the situation, thus reversing what may be a reality of victim and offender.[2][4] It often involves not just "playing the victim" but also victim blaming.[3]