Man in women’s changing rooms (NOT trans)

[DelisButAlsoCrime]

I genuinely don’t know if I am being unreasonable here or not.

I went swimming with DS today, and arriving at the same time of us was a mini bus with 8 adults - 7 men, one woman. It was fairly obvious that most of the males were disabled, not quite as severe as Down’s Syndrome but similar. The woman and one of the men were caring for them. All but one of the men went with the male carer to the men’s changing room, but the female and one of the men went, just ahead of me, into the female dressing room. The woman actually held the door open for me but I kind of did a double take and held back. I thought about going to reception and asking them but decided not to. When I went in they had gone into one of the private cubicles. However, they did come out before I was ready and the man came around the corner and was looking quite obviously into the open changing spaces.

AIBU to be uncomfortable with this? I don’t know if there is a disabled changing room at my gym because this would be the obvious answer if he needed to be specifically with the female carer.

You don’t understand risk.

We don’t risk assess on the basis of risk on a single occasion to a single individual. If we did that, we wouldn’t have:

Fire escapes - the risk of a fire on any given day is minuscule, so why bother?
Smoke detectors ditto.
Hospitals - we don’t need those. What are the chances I’m going to need medical help today?
Seat-belts , virtually no chance of crashing in any given journey.
Vaccines - what are the chances I’m going to get polio or measles today?
Locks on doors - what are the chances that I’m getting burgled today?
And so on.

Because in this case the man was disabled, which is a protected characteristic which entitles him to a suitable changing room just as much as sex entitles women to a suitable changing room. It’s not reasonable to say that because the gym couldn’t provide suitable changing rooms for him to access with his carer that it’s not a suitable space for him to carry out the activity any more than it would be okay to say that it’s not suitable for women to carry out the activity in that space if they’re uncomfortable with it.

The man and his carer were not doing anything wrong in using the available disabled facility if the only option was to use one in the single sex changing rooms. The disabled man should not have to swap around his carers to access appropriate changing facilities. The issue here is not with the disabled man or his carer and the onus should not be on the carers to try and swap around. The blame shouldn’t be put on the disabled man or his carer, who have the right to accessible changing rooms due to their protected characteristic of disability just as much as women have the right to single sex changing rooms. The issue here is with the gym for not providing adequate facilities and all of the people saying ‘ the carers should have done X’ or ‘the disabled man should have done Y’ are putting the blame and responsibility in the wrong place. The gym should be providing disabled facilities which can be accessed by disabled people and their carers (regardless of sex) which don’t require access to the same sex changing rooms, but if they are not providing that it is not the fault of the disabled people or their carers who are being forced to use the only available facilities. They may have felt very uncomfortable too but disabled people have as much of a right to suitable changing facilities as women do.

Err because as I said likelihood is plotted against consequence/outcome in any risk assessment. Google will help you to find an example of a risk assessment matrix which may help clarify things for you.

You seemed pleased I raised risk assessment but have contributed nothing but "statistical insignificance" in an attempt to demonstrate an understanding you clearly do not possess. The assessment of risk does not depend the calculation of likelihood alone and the fact that you think I'm talking about subjective consequence further illustrates your ignorance of the subject.

The likelihood of serious sexual assault in a mixed sex facility may be low but violent rape is a possible consequence which to all normal thinking people would be classified as a severe adverse outcome, therefore mixed sex facilities are a bad idea.

To help you further...

Millions of people make car journeys everyday without having an accident but the law requires us to wear a seatbelt and many cars have a host of safety features including things like airbags. Why do we have to wear seat belts and why are cars fitted with so many safety features when the number of accidents compared to journeys is tiny?

RISK ASSESSMENT, that's why.

We can tell which people are men and which are women @Trying20.

Some transmen pass in photos. In real life they don't. See point one.

You've just set out the argument for third spaces, @Trying20
If you present differently to your biological sex, you need somewhere that doesn't make anyone uncomfortable or put anyone at risk.

@DandyLandy

maybe he has a history of sexual abuse and is only comfortable being helped to change by a woman

Maybe one or more of the women in the changing room have a history of sexual abuse and are only comfortable changing with other women.

Maybe one or more of the women in the changing room have invisible additional needs that mean they are only comfortable changing with other women.

So why do the needs of man with a penis trump the needs of a woman?

And why does the comfort of a man trump the comfort of a woman?

Why couldn't they have taken turns in the men's? So one of the 5 the male carer had swapped out while the female carer waited with the 6th ready to be swapped out?

There are ways this could have been worked around without needing to take a man into the women's changing room.

@CherryColaRoller

If you have an issue you can leave the changing room

And there we have it.

Absolute misogyny.

Women, your feelings, comfort, privacy and dignity are always, always less important than those of anyone with a penis.

Fuck me, next you'll be saying women shouldn't be in a changing room anyway, they should be at home in the kitchen preparing their partners dinner.

There's nothing magical and mystical about it @Trying20

It's something that humans have evolved over thousands of years. How do you think the human race survived?

Good grief, I know it's the school holidays but surely no one is this dim.

It's a simple question - trans women either are women or they aren't; which bathroom policy would you like to apply?

Trans women aren't women. They are biologically male. They also need to be safe, but not at the expense of women in women only spaces.

It's only on MN this absolute madness around peoples bits in changing rooms occurs

I couldn't care less if a man came into the changing room, disabled or not. There are cubicles if I felt uncomfortable

It's not only on Mumsnet though, is it?

Because posters who say they're against men being in female only spaces feel and say that both on here and in 'real life'.

Stop dismissing women's feelings and boundaries.

YOU couldn't care less. Many women do care. Many women care deeply.

I thought you were speaking generally . There's no suggestion that this man was trans.
In this particular situation, I think closing the women's changing room for 10/15 minutes and giving the man and his carer sole use would be fairest to all concerned.

That included the women.

The truth is - you have absolutely no idea when you're looking at someone whether they're a man or a woman biologically. You're guessing based on your own assumptions and stereotypes and assuming you're right, aren't you?
You just won't accept that women can spot a male a mile off, will you? You've never had to use this instinct to keep you safe, but we have. All of us.

We don't know whether this person was or was not a man.

You're the only on who thinks this is even a question. OP is quite sure this is a man and that's what we're having a conversation about. I suspect swimming trunks and the absence of breasts or mastectomy scars would be quite a give away.

TW remain male no matter how much surgery they have had or how many hormones they have taken. Their criminal offending rates are the same as for the rest of the male population, they should not be using female facilities.

Feel free to campaign for third spaces, I would support the proposal.

The truth is - you have absolutely no idea when you're looking at someone whether they're a man or a woman biologically

Right, yes, I’m sure everyone reading this can think of the hundreds of times they have been unable to tell a man from a woman 🙄

Is that really the best you’ve got as an argument- that no one can reliably tell another person’s sex? Because that’s bollocks, isn’t it?

disabled people have as much of a right to suitable changing facilities as women do.

@MolkosTeenageAngst I don't disagree. But one doesn't trump the other. This highlights the fact the gym Should provide mixed sex spaces for disabled people and their carers. I still don't agree that a man should be able to use the womens changing room at any time though. It's women only. Unless the staff there made other women using the changing room aware of this so they could have time to get changed before (or after) the man if necessary.

120 in 2 years

Wowzers

Such a massive risk to all women

Don't dismiss women being sexually assaulted. And that's just the reported ones. Sexual assault is notoriously under reported to the police. 120 in 2 years is the equivalent of one every single week.

8 - 11 trans people have been murdered in the uk between 2008 and 2020.

Would you ever dismiss that statistic (from a trans activism campaign) and say that trans people (I believe all natal males IIRC) aren't at greater risk of murder, and in fact are at a much lower risk of murder than natal women?

Two women every week are murdered by their male current or former partner. So in 12 years as many trans people were murdered as women in just six weeks.

I hold you openly dismiss that sarcastically too and say to a TRA "wowserz, trans people are at such risk of murder" in a tone that sounds like an eye roll would be present?

Doubt it.