Man in women’s changing rooms (NOT trans)

[DelisButAlsoCrime]

I genuinely don’t know if I am being unreasonable here or not.

I went swimming with DS today, and arriving at the same time of us was a mini bus with 8 adults - 7 men, one woman. It was fairly obvious that most of the males were disabled, not quite as severe as Down’s Syndrome but similar. The woman and one of the men were caring for them. All but one of the men went with the male carer to the men’s changing room, but the female and one of the men went, just ahead of me, into the female dressing room. The woman actually held the door open for me but I kind of did a double take and held back. I thought about going to reception and asking them but decided not to. When I went in they had gone into one of the private cubicles. However, they did come out before I was ready and the man came around the corner and was looking quite obviously into the open changing spaces.

AIBU to be uncomfortable with this? I don’t know if there is a disabled changing room at my gym because this would be the obvious answer if he needed to be specifically with the female carer.

There we have it.

The sexual assault of women in just one specific type of setting is an "insignificant" problem even when it happens to one woman every single week.

What a fucking vile point of view.

You seem to hate women.

You're male, aren't you? Men have nothing to fear, experience no risk at all when people use the toilets/changing rooms of the sex they present as, the worst that's going to happen is that you'd get a biological woman in there beside you.
You shouldn't lecture women on why third spaces might be problematic.
We find biological males in our spaces problematic.

The number of trans people is tiny as a percentage of the population.

Would you call them statistically insignificant?

I can recognise a man when I'm in a woman only space, yes. Believe it or believe it not. A man has a bloody cheek to tell me this isn't the case.

Trying your insistence that biological sex isn't obvious makes me think you are a man. There is a reason why women are particularly good at distinguishing between men and women; our safety often depends on it, we start honing the skill at quite a young age.

I have only met one person in my life who I was confused about and they could have passed as either a man or a woman without being a feminine man or a masculine woman. In the end I concluded they were female and I was correct.

A man may present as a woman and pass if all you give them was a superficial glance but the second they move they give themselves away. Their gait and mannerisms are very obviously male.

I’m a doctor, @Trying20. Thousands of people have taken their clothes off in front of me. I have never been surprised (well, not by their sex, some of the tattoos have been eye-opening…).

No need to see people naked though. Presumably you would concede that individuals know their own sex? Just think of the thousands of times you meet someone and assume their sex. How often has that person told you you’re wrong? I’m guessing that, for most people, it’s never. Which suggests we’re pretty good at telling.

Carry on though. We know these types of thread attract lots of lurkers. It’s important that they see how ludicrous your arguments are. How many people do you think are reading your posts, thinking, ‘Yeah, great point- there’s just no way of telling who’s a man or woman by looking at them.”?

@Trying20 is a man. And therefore really is taking the piss trying to tell a bunch of women that their well honed sense of self preservation wouldn't allow them to recognise a male in a potentially risky situation.

Feel free to dismiss women's experience but it doesn't change the fact we're quite skilled at determining someone's sex.

Yes, I'm male and I've never hidden that on Mumsnet. What's your point?
Christ all fucking mighty! You haven't grown up as, been socialised as, a woman.

We ARE the rest of the world, I'm afraid

@CherryColaRoller

A minority of women would have an issue with this

Source please?

The rules aren't often made based on minority rule

So why is a rule being made that benefits trans people (around 1% of the UK population) and is to the potential detriment all women around 50% of the uk population, 14% of whom have been sexually assaulted or raped and highly unlikely to be comfortable sharing a single sex space in which they could be partially or totally unclothed, with a male bodied person.

That's at least one in 35 women likely to be uncomfortable or frightened. Because other women will also feel uncomfortable for various reasons, eg religion / general discomfort.

Versus around 1% of the population feeling more comfortable than they would be in a men's single sex space or a third space.

So why aren't TRAs fighting for third spaces rather than insisting women are uncomfortable or frightened in order to accommodate trans women?

I've said I'm not outright against third spaces - but they're not available. So what's the solution?

Possibly for the people they would benefit to start campaigning for them rather than expending their energy bullying women. Just a thought.

In the meantime single sex spaces should be respected. Women are not responsible for solving everyone else's problems, we've got enough of our own to deal with.

They have every right to feel safe.

But not at the expense of women feeling safe.

Why is their safety more important than that of natal women?

Why aren't they fighting for third spaces, to be kind and accepting of the needs and safety of women?

Erm, I think she meant women...

Jesus fucking Christ. It's like a holiday into a lunatic asylum.

Grab a cocktail and a sun lounger; don't forget the sunscreen and enjoy.

Seriously you could try engaging with what has been said to you rather than resorting to exasperated insults because you can't get your own way, it's a very male thing to do.

I'm not sure what your sexuality is @Trying20, but I assume you know the sex of a person when choosing a partner without having to check their genitals first.

Violence against women is actually a drop in the ocean

Idiotic statement.

Two women a week are murdered by men who are current or previous partners.

The audacity to call that a drop in the ocean.

Fucking hell.

You hate women.

Internalised misogyny if you are a woman.

And guess what, no matter how much you dismiss male violence against women and girls, you're no safer than other women. The men who hate women hate you just as much.

We are trying to protect you when we campaign against violence against women, which you say is a drop in the ocean.

You're welcome.