Man in women’s changing rooms (NOT trans)

[DelisButAlsoCrime]

I genuinely don’t know if I am being unreasonable here or not.

I went swimming with DS today, and arriving at the same time of us was a mini bus with 8 adults - 7 men, one woman. It was fairly obvious that most of the males were disabled, not quite as severe as Down’s Syndrome but similar. The woman and one of the men were caring for them. All but one of the men went with the male carer to the men’s changing room, but the female and one of the men went, just ahead of me, into the female dressing room. The woman actually held the door open for me but I kind of did a double take and held back. I thought about going to reception and asking them but decided not to. When I went in they had gone into one of the private cubicles. However, they did come out before I was ready and the man came around the corner and was looking quite obviously into the open changing spaces.

AIBU to be uncomfortable with this? I don’t know if there is a disabled changing room at my gym because this would be the obvious answer if he needed to be specifically with the female carer.

Mmm yes, you’re so right. The number of times I’ve been out with heterosexual male mates and they’re laughing about how often they’ve chatted up a woman….only to find she’s a man. Happens all the time, I’m telling you, all the time. Amazing that they made it such a huge plot twist in (spoiler alert) The Crying Game, really, when you think what an everyday occurrence it is

And the lasses are just as bad. Think back, Everyone, remember all those times you could have sworn someone was a man, but then they unexpectedly gave birth or asked you for a tampon.

If what the women on this thread are saying is "we just know" - okay, I'll accept that.

But I'll give you a heads up. You're gonna have to do a lot of work to convince the rest of the world of that, I'm afraid.

Sweetheart 50% of the world don't need convincing and I don't believe your foot stamping represents the other 50%.

How do you know who has a penis?

Would you start a checking bits policy at the door of the changing rooms?

Studies show that a between 87% - 95% of trans women never have bottom surgery.

You like calling statistics insignificant, so there's another good example for you.

I agree the rights of the disabled don’t trump the rights of women. It’s difficult because in this case the man wasn’t using the women’s changing rooms, he was using a disabled changing room. The issue is that the access to the disabled changing room was through the women’s changing room. There was no way for him to access a suitable accessible changing room with his female carer without entering a single sex space as a mixed sex pair which is obviously a problem. You can’t ban the man and his carer from entering the single space changing rooms without effectively banning them from using the disabled changing rooms which would obviously not be reasonable.

I do agree that the staff could have made women aware that a man was about to walk through the women’s space in order to access the disabled facilities and had him wait until any women changing were finished and then waited in the female changing rooms informing women he was in the disabled changing rooms so that any woman uncomfortable with this could wait to get changed until after he had left. That does put both him and the women in an uncomfortable position though which is unfair and I definitely think it is grounds for a complaint. I think both the women who were in the changing room and the disabled man/ his carer have an equal right to raise a complaint as the situation was not fair on either party.

Don't do that petulant nonsense, ffs. You haven't heard a word.

Around 1% of people are trans.

So their needs are, by your definition, statistically insignificant. No?

Speaking to a sexual assault victim and accusing them of just wanting attention?

Top tip - life's short, don't be a cunt.

It's a keep your knob out of the women's changing room.

Most people go an entire lifetime without making a mistake about someone’s sex.

We know it. Everyone reading this knows it. Pretending otherwise makes you look extremely silly. Please carry on, though, because you are doing a fabulous job of exposing the the weakness of your arguments.

You know people's gender because you "just do" and you're representative of the entire world. I've heard ya.

I know nothing about someone's gender except what they may choose to tell me but I'm pretty confident I can correctly sex someone on sight, fully clothed, regardless of what clothes they are wearing.

Now, take a seat, I'm about to blow your mind... I can correctly identify almost anyone I know by their gait at half a mile or more. I can identify most people I know by their foot steps, the way they clear their throat or the way they sneeze. My ex husband thought I was a witch.

He might have had a point.

I'll roll with it. Women (and some men - not sure we've clarified that yet?) "just know" what someone's sex is and the whole world agrees. No probs.
You can bet your ass men recognise women when they see them. Why is this news to you?

The only unreasonableness is that the OP did not complain. A man should not be in the women's changing room. You knew it; the care worker knew it. It is not up to the OP to provide a solution to the problem - that's down to the care staff and the leisure centre.

We all need to learn to speak the hell up and stop second-guessing ourselves about this stuff. I sympathise with your reluctance to make a fuss because it's so programmed in us, but really... make a fuss. You were in the right and you knew it and it bothered you.

Why are you so keen for women to accept other men into their female only spaces then?

@Trying20

Yes, I'm male and I've never hidden that on Mumsnet. What's your point?

Genuine question for you. Have you ever considered that if when you post about this, lots of women explain how uncomfortable and frightening it can be for many women and girls to see a male bodied person in single sex spaces where they may be changing or otherwise vulnerable?

Can you not acknowledge that the discomfort and fear is something you cannot understand and are unwilling to prioritise as much as the discomfort of trans women?

I am white. If multiple black people described a situation that make them uncomfortable, I cannot imagine for one second saying that they are wrong to feel uncomfortable and should put the feelings of the white people making them uncomfortable above their own feelings. Because that would be a racist take on the situation. Likewise, doing the same in relation to women is a misogynist take on the situation.

You mean the 50% who are male?

Well they aren't the majority because many men actually respect women's boundaries and believe a woman saying 'no' is as important as a male bodied person saying 'no'.

So you're in the minority. Because your words make it clear you value the thoughts, feelings and needs of 50% of the UK population less than the maximum of 1% of the population that are trans.

And some of them believe in preserving single sex spaces and campaign for third spaces rather than expecting women to make room for male bodied people even when it's to the detriment of women.

My trans woman friend has said repeatedly that the lives of trans people are being made worse by TRAs, most of whom aren't trans themselves, because of the boundary pushing and refusal to listen to women, which doesn't represent all of them. Not the ones who are decent and want to be allies to women. And know that most women would support third spaces if it means single sex spaces can be preserved.