To wonder why men hate women so much?

[YouAreNotBatman]

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

@brookstar

I mean ultimately the people that create the workplace are those who make the opportunity. What I’m saying is as long as men create the opportunity that women want women will always be beholden to them. They can take that away if they really want to.

Which is why if we ever have lasting equality imo it needs to come from women creating more workplaces for themselves rather than just wanting opportunity in male made ones.
The problem is what if that never happens on an equal level because we’re different? What are men just meant to go on making most of everything then giving women opportunity in it and power over it? I mean if they don’t like the changes that brings then why? It’s not really equality anyway. It’s a facade of equality created by forcing men to give women half of what they make isn’t it?

What on earth are you reading? No one said all men hate women.

Your point about male runners is absolute bullshit. It’s a pathetic way to gain sympathy and yet again being the attention back to the poor men and how they suffer. Male runners are complaining about supposedly worrying about ‘unwittingly’ scaring women while women are actually being attacked. How does that not even remotely concern you?

I have a 16 year old son. I’ve explained to him that he should be aware of women on their own and pro-actívely make them feel more comfortable by crossing the road or keeping his distance. He’s fine with this and just lives his life as usual because it’s not a hardship. Why is it so difficult for your son to afford women the same courtesy?

Google ‘women attacked while out running’. It’s utterly heartbreaking and as a female runner, that’s where my sympathies lie, not with the men who can’t be bothered to make even the smallest allowance to ensure women feel safe.

If it's less than half of the male population it's a minority

By definition

And I would anyone who genuinely thinks half of all men are rapists

Half of all men might not be rapists but I was objecting to the op who was trying minimise male violence towards women.

Two women a week are murdered by their male partner - it's not the same man killing these women.

Jealous!

No they weren't minimising anything

They were using correct terminology

It is a minority of men

And there's a huge number of men who would not consider themselves rapists, abusive or sexually coercive but I suspect their partners tell a different story

And?

Doesn't change the definition of the word 'minority'

Yes I think is very true.

@Eeksteek

”disenfranchised men will just have to suck it up”.
Except they won’t will they? They will flock to whatever gives them a sense of purpose and what they want and being told they have to suck it up isn’t going to be much of a counter offer. That’s how revolutions get started. “Hey Russian Peasant we know your not happy but suck it up”

look how close Trump came to becoming a dictator - a large part of his support is disenfranchised men. Now imagine even more disenfranchised men but instead of following a sleazy moron without a plan they’re lead by the guys who really know what they’re doing - they will beat any more equal or female dominated force which opposes them and it won’t even be a close fight. That’s why you can’t let huge amounts of men become disenchanted with society - or something like that will happen, it’s certain.

I also can’t agree that women have the right to “demand” things of men just because it makes them equal. Ultimately we will have to make that for ourselves. Or not. But make something and be satisfied with it. Otherwise we’re just living “equal” for as long as men provide it to us.

Okay firstly I am a guy. Just for transparency. I don't "hate" women at all, in fact some of my favourite people in the universe are women. I also (from my interactions with many men) don't see this as a trend/common occurrence. It may well be that I am being sheltered based on who I know, but very rarely do I come across men that hate women. That said, I am reading "Men Who Hate Women" by Laura Bates at the moment so can give some ideas based on that.

Firstly we need to separate individual "men" from "the system" which was created by men. Yes there are some big issues re: abortion that are prime examples of the system telling women what they should do with their bodies. Why? I think a lot of it is conservative or religious ideology that leads to that, opposed to men in general though men do hold the cards in most instances.

To those that think its about sex...no. Sure it CAN be about sex but that is an un-nuanced way of viewing the whole thing. Men aren't "taught to think women owe them sex" and that's a ludicrous suggestion. Some boys may have the impression from other boys that this is the case but I don't for a moment believe that men are taught that. Given that most men are raised by women, I would wonder how they got that message to begin with.

I suspect there is a push back because men are being told they are privileged and that they are top of the food chain. For many men that feels like a total slap in the face and whilst not untrue, I think we as a society need to have a conversation - rather than shouting at each other - about the role men play in society. I also think that men are pushing back because their role has been eroded - they don't know where they "fit" in society where they now have to be interested and considerate of other groups.

There are issues with family courts, male suicide, workplace accidents, life expectancy etc that are glaring issues in society but because men are "dominant" those problems are widely ignored. It doesn't make a rocket scientist to see that when you ignore a group of people - even if you don't but they THINK you are - they will fight back. Sadly all this does is cause more division and anger and doesn't solve any actual problems.

Men do a HUGE amount of damage to society. That's pretty obvious. And when you constantly tell young men that they are awful, misogynistic, privileged, dominant and inherently unpleasant it doesn't take long for them to think "f* it I will act like that then". We MUST bolster our young men so that they can be who they are, maintain male roles in society and most of all take responsibility.

Screaming at men to change won't change them. I've seen the horrific consequences of rape, molestation, domestic abuse etc first hand. I see the trauma and chaos it inflicts on the lives of others. AND at the same time, if we simply tell men they are bad and need to change, we are likely to get a big "f* you" in response. We need to do one thing and I am unsure how: give men a reason to not do shitty things and have shitty views about those less fortunate. Why? Because why should they choose to do the right thing? What benefit do they get from it? I am not saying that its fair or ethical, but no dominant group gives away power for the sake of it. Not a single one. Its the same with BLM, give white people a reason to do the right thing.

I believe (and I may be wrong) that men don't like the fact that they have no "vulnerability" or "oppression" to fall back on. They can't blame others for their misfortunes (white men I mean). How threatening is it when everyone else can blame someone else, yet you have to take full accountability for your crappy life? Ideally they would get a grip and take responsibility but that simply won't happen. I am not talking about rights and wrongs, just the situation as I see it.

I do despair for my daughter in many ways. I can already see she is likely to be a rather fiery, self-righteous character (who did she get that from I wonder!?) and I suspect that men will see her as a "bitch" as she moves into her teens. How she is going to navigate a world where men and women are pitting themselves against each other I dread to think.

In short, when the chips are down people turn on each other. Women turn on men. Men turn on women. Whites on black folk and vice-versa. Women kick the crap out of trans people and vice versa. The ONLY way out of this is to accept that EVERYONE is suffering in their own ways and have a bit of compassion rather than pointing fingers and apportioning blame.

That's just a view from a bloke. I am likely way off in my view though I do speak with HUGE numbers of men about personal, important, life-death topics and these tend to be the themes.

@Eeksteek "”disenfranchised men will just have to suck it up”.

That's not how it works. You can say that all you like but as a dominant group they don't have to do anything of the sort. They will (and I don't condone this at all) make life harder for those around them. Unless we address the issues at source.

We need to do one thing and I am unsure how: give men a reason to not do shitty things and have shitty views about those less fortunate. Why? Because why should they choose to do the right thing? What benefit do they get from it?

You would think their grandmothers, mother, aunts, sisters, nieces, daughters and granddaughters would be enough reason not to treat women like crap.

Women kick the crap out of trans people and vice versa

Wtf

Jessica Taylor and Laura Bates write loads about this

'Why men hate woman'
'Why woman are blamed for everything'

Eye opening and scary reads. I think these texts only find you when you are ready for them though - as I certainly wouldnt have been able to digest them in my 20s. I was still far too indoctrinated by the patriachy at that point.

Its not just rape though is it?

Once you get past the rape and the domestic violence and the sexual assault then there are all the low level things.

Talking over women, not pulling their weight in housework and childcare, deadbeat dads leaving single mothers behind and begrudging them the child support if they pay it at all.

Its 'smile love' thinking we owe them 'pretty', approaching random women because we should talk to them because we owe them time, not taking on half the mental load, the little sexist comments and digs.

Its incels and complaints about how women don't like 'nice men' and complaining about being 'friend zoned'.

Its complaining about women having domestic violence refuges rather than setting up male ones.

Its the fact that the date of the year when 'international men's day' is most googled is international women's day. They don't give a shit about it when international men's day rolls round though because women haven't organised anything for them.

It's lesbians being told they just need a real man to straighten them out, whilst 'real men' get off on lesbian porn. Its teenagers thinking that they have to have anal sex because porn is so hardwired into our culture now teenage boys think girls should like it and they are weird if they don't.

It's the threads on here about how many husbands grope their wives at inappropriate times and when the wives say stop they don't. Or sulking because they don't get sex when they want, as often as they want, even if their wife has only just given birth.

It's that the world is designed for men, so women are more likely to die in a car crash, and medical research until not long ago didn't have to include women in the sample.

It's that women are more likely to die than men if they are operated on by a male surgeon, but the same doesn't hold true for men being operated on by women.

It's male politicians telling us you can't get pregnant from rape, or setting back abortion rights so that 12 year old girls are forced to carry the babies that some vile man has foisted on them. It's men thinking they have a voice in abortion laws at all.

Its that women are blamed when men have affairs (both the wife who probably should have had sex more to hold onto her woman, and the other woman the hussy) but the men are barely blamed because obviously he's going to look elsewhere if he can't get what he wants at home.

It's that its 2022 and we still have a gender pay gap, even though its fucking obvious we should have fixed that by now.

It's men who encourage their wives to give up work when they have kids and then resent them for bringing no money in and then leave them and don't see why the women should get part of the proceeds from the house when they didn't earn the money for it.

Its the men who shout comments out of the car at 12 year old girls. The flashers in the park or on the bus, the wolf whistles and the cat calls that turn nasty if you don't react right and you get called a frigid bitch.

It's when a terrorist man blows something up and women of that ethnicity/religion/group get asked why they aren't bringing their sons up right, but the father's aren't asked.

It's when domestic violence rates go up when a football team loses.

Its when women discuss domestic violence against women someone always comes along to tell them off for not centring male victims of domestic violence. And when women discuss women being raped someone always comes along telling them off for not centring male rape victims. And when women discuss female suicide we are always reminded that more men commit suicide, but when men talk about male suicide no one tells them off for not centring women.

And its the constantly being blamed for all of the above. Because we wear the wrong clothes, or we aren't grateful enough for the attention, or we shouldn't have had sex, or we should have had sex, or we haven't picked the right man, or we shouldn't let them get away with it. Because we should just #bekind

@Eeksteek

I think the myth that pre history was more equal or matriarchal is just that. A total myth.

If you observe any tribal society (and I don’t mean some modern Hollywood representation) that might be something like a pre historic one in early colonial writings or even Amazon tribes found in the 21st century they weren’t equal at all. Look at the Islander societies with their Kings and Cheifs etc. Women weren’t treated better than ancient western ones, perhaps worse.

Yes it might be a PHD but it would be a fantasy not based in anything we know of reality. I think the idea that pre history was matriarchal and good is attractive to some women because they think things could be that way or more equal - whereas if they accept the likely truth, men have always had a massive amount of power over us, then they may find it hopeless to think things can truly change.

It's simple.

Men have had power for a long time. And they dont want to give it up.

It is fun to have power over people. It feels great. The world as it is now, suits men.

It is the same in every abusive relationship. The abuser will never change, the oppressed person has to make the change.

My ex male colleague said to me once, "men love having power over women. Would you give up that bit of power? Of course you wouldnt".

So a lot of men are obviously not going to change. Everything suits them.

What can women do to make the change? Women keep this situation going too. A lot of women dont stand up for other women. A lot of women are not nice to other women. I think a lot of women are afraid to stand up to men, because they dont want men to think badly of them.

For example, I came on mumsnet a while ago and wrote about women being treated badly in Ireland. And believe me, I have heard many horrific stories of abuse against women in Ireland. On that thread, no one agreed with me, about a hundred Irish women came on and said "that has never been my experience in Ireland, women are treated great in Ireland".

Even though Ireland has a long history of treating women like shit, (I can find so many factual examples, and Ireland also has a very recent history of treating women like shit).

When I open the newspapers in Ireland, nearly every week there is a shocking story about rape, gang rape, incest,some of the most horrific abuses to women.

Yet if I post on here about women being treated badly in Ireland, a hundred women will come on and say women are treated brilliantly in Ireland. That shit really annoys me. It is women turning a blind eye to other womens suffering, and denying what is happening, for male approval.

but many men dont have daughters, nieces, grandaughters. There are a lot of single men until old age now.

@Burgoo

Of course men are taught by society that they're entitled to sex.

Its everywhere

Even down to how sex is discussed.

Its something women give and men take

Its a shame men think that's ridiculous

Why would men want women to have equal rights to them, when they have had the power for so long.

If you look at it realistically. For men to give up their power over women, what would they gain? So why would they give up power? It suits them.

Nothing. So they will keep doing it for as long as they can. They have no incentive at all to give up power.

It will have to be women who make the change. It has to come from women to demand more for themselves, in all areas of life, and not give up till they get it. WE can do it!

And?

Doesn't change the definition of the word 'minority'

Is this how you'd like to derail the thread? Okay so I didn't use the word minority correctly but the PP was minimising male violence against women. That makes me quite angry and emotional so I responded.

However, I don't believe that the majority of men respect women. I believe the good men are a minority- I'm lucky enough to know some of the good men but the vast majority of men I have met,worked with, had relationships with etc have not been good men. They think they are, but they're not.

My mum was in an abusive relationship and he ended up killing her. He never believed he was abusive - he just loved her so much (his reasoning for the years of emotional abuse)

I was in an abusive relationship- when I left and told people he had been abusive he hit the roof because he genuinely didn't believe he was abusive. Every single one of his male family members and friends were the same.

Every single one of my friends has been in abusive relationship and that's not even acknowledging the harassment from strangers and the everyday sexism we experience.

So okay, a minority of men might be rapists but the majority of men are not good people.

Because they feel entitled. To a woman's attention,time,body, labour (be that in the home or at a job) and so on. They see a no as personal rejection and a slight. No matter how absurd or ridiculous they're being. That breeds hate and eventually violence because they just can't accept that no,we don't owe them shit.

I think many men are extremely resentful that women have more freedom now. Many of them probably even consciously believe they're pro women's rights, but deep down it pisses them off that they have less power now. Sexism is far from dead, it's just significantly more covert.

This is what I wanted to say too. I really think there's a lot of truth in this take.

I was just thinking of when I was young in Ireland, and I would be on a night out.

I would overhear men say "Any hole is a goal".
The level of disrespect was awful

Well if the recent football win didn't make it clear, its because women are generally better than men at most things and only by subjugation and pulling us down have they managed to hide that fact for so long.

I don't know the answer. DH is actually one of the few men I've ever met who isn't sexist or misogynistic in some way or another and I am utterly baffled at how so many women don't see the clear red flags in front of their faces as their partner behaves like a misogynistic prick, oh its just banter, oh but boys will be boys etc...

Education of men may help a few but more importantly we need to educate our daughters to recognise, and avoid such men, teach them not to be reliant on a man to keep them, that men are equal in raising children etc

I'm just sick that almost 40 year after I realised i was being treated differently to my brother and how it was incredibly unfair that we are still dealing with this. FFS