To wonder why men hate women so much?

[YouAreNotBatman]

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

Now now, be fair. 98% is the stat for male perpetration rates for sexual offending. For murders, it's only 93%!

(It is true that men are far likelier to be murdered than women. But men are likely to be murdered by another man, whether that be that acquaintance or stranger - whereas women are mostly killed by a partner.)

It's a good question and I don't know the answer really. I think educating men about the oppression of women is probably beneficial but I don't think it necessarily solves the problem.

I think education does play a part. It certainly helps for it to be instilled into boys that casual sexism isn't acceptable from primary school. My DD has just left primary school and inevitably has come across low level sexism from her male peers and the school seemed to be quite good at cracking down on this and getting across to the boys that this wasn't going to be tolerated. Much more so than when I was at primary school in the early 80s. Just to give a really obvious example we were banned from playing football while my DD and her peers are actively encouraged to do it. That certainly doesn't hurt and I'm sure that's a net benefit.

I guess what I'm saying is that educating men about the oppression of women isn't enough and doesn't necessarily solve the deep-rooted problem which is that men are very unwilling to give up their power.

I've observed quite a lot of well-educated, intelligent men over the years who clearly understand that women have been oppressed, have superficial sympathy and are very good at paying lip service to it. But these men often take a very different perspective when it impacts on their own working lives and families. It's one rule for women in general to be "feminists" but quite another when its their wife, girlfriend or daughter. That's probably not an intellectual position but an emotional one.

I've known an awful lot of men over the years (and my father was a very good example) who seek out clever and opinionated women as friends and colleagues but who don't want their life partners to challenge them in this way. My dad surrounded himself with hyper ambitious, argumentative, independent women in his work and social life but my mum was basically a fairly meek, SAHM. This sort of thing is much much harder to shift because it boils down to a man's reluctance to make his domestic life harder than he feels it needs to be. And education may oddly make that harder in some ways because the bright entitled men still feel they are owed this double whammy of a great job plus a supportive spouse and also know their way to charm their way through an argument with a bolshy feminist.

Ultimately the way men choose to organise their domestic lives is still driven by selfish practical and emotional needs. No man is willingly going to make his life harder to further the cause of female emancipation. That's why we gots to fight 'em for it.

A lot of women support and defend misogyny, and always have done. I remember reading a batshit article from the 1970s, talking about the Women's Liberation Movement, where a woman journalist smugly opined that there was a certain look in the eyes of a woman when she knows herself to be truly and deeply loved by a man, and that that look was missing from the eyes of the Women's Libbers. She clearly thought that it was some fantastic gotcha, the claim that nice girls were loveable by men, not like those nasty feminists.

And yet the same arguments are still being made - just less overtly.

It's why the FiLiA conferences are such a breath of fresh air. Women discussing women's rights, across all areas and all issues. (With a free, and genuinely inclusive, creche, too!)

Things are getting worse, there's no question. But there's FiLiA, and also the amazing Centre for Women's Justice, leading the fightback. There are things we can do, and causes we can support, to try to effect change for our daughters.

@KettrickenSmiled

Woman can create companies. My point was that if there is ever equality in a work sense women will have to do that on a level similar to men, otherwise the men who create more of those things will always have a higher position in them and say how they are run, which is fair since they made them.
Maybe that will happen, maybe it won’t. There isn’t really any good reason to think it will happen naturally on an exactly alike level, after all men and women are different. If it doesn’t then why would you expect an equal amount of control over industry between the genders?

I was commenting that in general rather than original creation in that way much of womens equality at work was and is gained through a forced attachment to what men make. Not just what they made but also new things (companies and technology) that they make. I find it has a very gendered aspect to it, almost like seeking out a male provider. Except instead of a single man in marriage it applies to workplaces.

If a woman is invited to join an all male board then obviously that is fine, but I said if they are forced to hire a woman that is wrong. In that case they are being forced to give up creative control of their creation by adding a new voice who will change it despite what they want. You can say that she’s adding value to it and she can agree but it’s hardly fair if the men who actually made the company don’t agree and don’t like the changes she brings. She is clearly far less entitled to control over what they have made than they are (in fact she isn’t at all).

Her (or you) saying “your not losing control by being forced to hire me and let me change your company, I’m adding value whether you agree or not” is like something out of a authoritarian dystopia sci fi. I find saying that (which is basically what forced gender hiring amounts to) unlikely to create a lasting equality at work. Just a volcano of bitter angry men waiting to go off. And they still will have way more control because they’re still the ones making the majority of stuff.

Yes I know womens work has sometimes been undervalued. Not always. I think probably from the start of time some men did appreciate what women do as far as traditional work and childcare and then some others were abusive assholes. Same as today I guess. However as of late I’ve only found other women (specifically on this board) who don’t appreciate all women do in child rearing and all the good it does society.

I write as though (some) work is something that men bestow or women force their attachment to because frankly that is how I see a large part of equality at work as having played out. To the point I really couldn’t call it equality or even view it as much of an achievement because I think as soon as you stop forcing it it naturally falls apart. You saw that in a small way with the pandemic.

That’s why I’m saying if we want more work equality in a lasting way women have to create more in the working world, like men have done, rather than just push to fill positions in things men make. Otherwise it will never happen. It doesn’t effect me but that’s my opinion. But it’s like many don’t even want to try and think it’s crazy to try. Men wouldn’t think that.

Anyway I think the whole idea of equality in work is silly. I’m more for women following their own inclination and doing things that suit them at work if they’re that way inclined rather than having a goal of trying to match up men and women wages so they’re exactly equal by making sure men always provide them with half the jobs. That’s a pretty leeching kind of equality imo.
Id rather we make something our own and be happy with it and know we deserved it and stop giving a shit about pointless equality that can’t last.

Have you read all of their posts?

Coming onto a thread where people are discussing male violence towards women to declare that 'women are cruel too!' is the very definition of whataboutery.

@perfectstorm yes, thank you for that considered response. Education is not a waste of time, I don't think, but as you say , changing things affects men's convenience. Obviously there will be resistance.

@Rosehugger

This is the thing. Most women don’t really want a man who apes feminine behaviour. I certainly don’t.

Can you give at least one example of a company not only being forced to hire women, but forced to put them on the board too?

Woman can create companies. My point was that if there is ever equality in a work sense women will have to do that on a level similar to men, otherwise the men who create more of those things will always have a higher position in them and say how they are run, which is fair since they made them.

A man built my house. Even though I'm on the mortgage does my husband have more ownership rights because it was made by men?

Maybe that will happen, maybe it won’t. There isn’t really any good reason to think it will happen naturally on an exactly alike level, after all men and women are different. If it doesn’t then why would you expect an equal amount of control over industry between the genders?

You've refused to answer this question but I'll ask it again, in what way are men and women different? When it comes to developing careers, how are men and women different?

If a woman is invited to join an all male board then obviously that is fine, but I said if they are forced to hire a woman that is wrong. In that case they are being forced to give up creative control of their creation by adding a new voice who will change it despite what they want. You can say that she’s adding value to it and she can agree but it’s hardly fair if the men who actually made the company don’t agree and don’t like the changes she brings. She is clearly far less entitled to control over what they have made than they are (in fact she isn’t at all).
Her (or you) saying “your not losing control by being forced to hire me and let me change your company, I’m adding value whether you agree or not” is like something out of a authoritarian dystopia sci fi. I find saying that (which is basically what forced gender hiring amounts to) unlikely to create a lasting equality at work. Just a volcano of bitter angry men waiting to go off. And they still will have way more control because they’re still the ones making the majority of stuff.

Again, you've been asked this before but can you give examples of where men are being forced to give up control of their businesses or have been forced to hire women just because they're women?
Where is this 'forced gender hiring' happening?

Anyway I think the whole idea of equality in work is silly.
Thankfully most people don't agree with you. I really hope you don't say this to your children.

@Mooshamoo
This is very true. Actually Mumsnet is a good example of a certain type of bullying which women do which men really don’t which is bullying through appeals to authority - reporting posts they don’t agree with, trying to get people banned etc. it’s the same as telling stories to teaches in a boarding school of girls as a way to bully or the way there is more snitching if fake infractions in womens prisons. I guess it’s because women are more used to someone stronger doling out the actual punishment it’s more natural for us to think this way.
In that way women do their violence and bullying by proxy through other people (sometimes men).

Men have the opposite problem, they report so little and hate snitching to the point where actual dangerous and insane posts in mens forums aren’t reported and crimes are committed or other various horrible things go totally unnoticed by them.

That was a later post. An early post wasn't about that.

@brookstar Don’t kid yourself. Most people don’t care about the gender pay gap or absolute equality. Just a minority of some women who push for it. In my opinion it’s no longer necessary and has turned toxic. It’s negative about men in general and about women raising children.

Also pressure through social media and creating bad PR for a company which doesn’t have more women on the board or in control is a form of forced hiring.

Don’t kid yourself. Most people don’t care about the gender pay gap or absolute equality. Just a minority of some women who push for it. In my opinion it’s no longer necessary and has turned toxic. It’s negative about men in general and about women raising children.

Can you provide me with some evidence that supports your claim that most people don't care about equality or the gender pay gap?
As I've mentioned, I'm a university academic and I study, write about and teach this for a living. I can assure you that people do care and do think it's necessary.

@brookstar

Men and women are quite different hormonally which affects the way they think and want to do things. To think this doesn’t have effect at work is unrealistic.

@Suetodo2
So most women you know are fine with being paid less than men for the same job?
(I do believe men are fine with that)

I don’t know one woman who’s happy with that.

How has it turned toxic?
Why do you think it’s okey for women to be pid less for the same job?

Your last sentence made even less sense, I’m afraid.

Her (or you) saying “your not losing control by being forced to hire me and let me change your company, I’m adding value whether you agree or not” is like something out of a authoritarian dystopia sci fi.
😂😂😂

Why to you keep banging on about forced hires @Suetodo88?

Women are capable of reaching Board positions on their own merits. Sure - it's far harder for them, & they have to overcome multi-layered prejudices, but when women are hired to senior positions (or any positions, frankly) the hirers themselves are the people making the decision about about much value they believe the woman will bring to the company.

When you keep insisting that the world of work is male-owned & the only way women get into the senior end of it is by positive discrimination, your own bigotry is showing. Most successful business owners don't give a shit which sex is bringing in the revenue - just that it keeps coming.

@brookstar

Yes I’m sure people in your field of academia do care, but that’s really a bubble.

Again, can you provide specific examples of forced hiring. Can you name any company that has been forced to hire someone just because they are a woman? or a company where men have been told to hand over control to women?

Do you have any evidence for this claim that "most people" don't care about the gender pay gap? Because an awful lot of people really do care about it.

Also this old chestnut about negativity towards "women raising children" (which I presume is a euphemism for you wanting there to be more SAHMs).

How is women being paid equal pay for an equal job harming "women raising children"?

I'm interested at a personal level because I'm raising a child on my own without any support from any man. And I fail to see how it would help either me or my child if I learned that I am paid less than a man for doing the exact same job. Please enlighten me!

It's not.
I worked in industry for years. I work with employers, recruiters and professional bodies.