To wonder why men hate women so much?

[YouAreNotBatman]

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

I don't use the word hate, but we are more of an irritant, waiting to happen. This irritant bubbles under the surface and will show its face when:

We reject their sexual advances
We take longer to park a car
We dare to get involved in 'their' sports
We know more about a subject than they do
We expect equal pay.

Isn't the clever woman, the one who lets a man believe he is in control? I heard that quote somewhere ..

@Mississipi71

Isn't the clever woman, the one who lets a man believe he is in control?

Define "clever". If by "clever" you mean cynical, manipulative and happy to live with the cognitive dissonance of being with someone who you don't respect enough to be honest with, then yes I'll let you have that.

But my definition of "clever" would include the right to be with someone who you can open up to enough to to be able to reveal your intelligence.

A life spent covering up your intelligence, your true thoughts and feelings is no life at all. Far better to be on your own than to be that sort of "clever".

No definitely!

It's like listening to Michael Douglas claim that sex was his addiction, hence being unfaithful to CZJ. What a throbber.

As an aside, there's a great Twilight Zone episode called "Not all Men". My daughter and I found it hilarious but this thread made me think of it. Not that make violence is funny but the end was quite clever. Worth a watch.

I wonder if education would help. Are men educated to degree level or beyond less likely to be sexist? Are women with higher education more likely to assert their rights to respect and equally?

I mean this with respect but it's very easy to say this whenyou have not been subject to cat calling, groping and assault (all from older men before your even 14). This isn't my perspective it's my experience. I really hope it isn't my daughters although to spice things up a bit it may instead be dick pics and up skirting or revenge porn.

I think most posters aren't saying all men. Not even most men. But too many men.

When your pushing 50 and still see it's too many men you do have moments of lumping them all together and generalising occasionally though.

Very interesting exploration. I am sure, thinking about it, it was a quote from the Other Boleyn Girl, which would render your kind of clever impossible. Luckily, these days, women have much more freedom to express and individualise their own ideas and opinions. Maybe clever now would best represent a woman dating a wealthy man; the subject of a recent thread. Subjective word, I guess?

@AchatAVendre

I find the problem with a lot of men is that they are simply not intelligent enough for what they are trying to do. They want to walk into a well paid job - they aren't competent enough. They want a beautiful wife/girlfriend - they aren't good enough. This makes them angry and they think they are entitled to all of that.

I agree with this. And I think a lot of the recent rage directed at women (which at its most extreme takes the form of incel chat threads and violence but which is much more insidious at lower levels) is mainly men slowly waking up to the fact that the vast majority of their advantage comes from the massive structural privileges they have had in the past, not from some inherent superiority.

Until fairly recently women's position in western society was so circumscribed by laws and social mores that to some extent all women had make peace with this. You pretty much had to get married so you'd marry the least worst man you could find and tough it out unless it was so awful that you had to escape. You had to either have children (and thus sacrifice your financial independence forever) or remain single and childless and be regarded as a social outcast. Or if you were brave enough to continue working you were marginalised and subjected to the arbitrary risk of being fired at any moment.

Nowadays none of this is mandatory (although a lot of social pressure remains). Women can support themselves if they work hard enough and they can go back to work after having children. They can remain single and while the stigma hasn't disappeared it's much less than it was. We still have a long way to go but things are much better than they were 50 years ago.

And most men (obligatory NAMALT) are at some level uncomfortable with this. Even the ones who theoretically are "progressive" and the ones who are comfortable in theory with the idea of female equality. Because, to misquote Warren Buffett, when the tide goes out you can suddenly see who's swimming naked.

Education is irrelevant imo. Etonians anyone?

Fantastic post.

So the question could be: why are women so cruel?

///

Interesting question - perhaps start a thread? This one's about the damage MANY NOT ALL - popped that bit on for the NAMALT brigade - men do

I so agree with this. I was just looking at my own life recently.

One of the biggest mistakes that I bought into life was this: I was conditioned by society to see well educated men as good men. That I should aim to get a relationship with a well educated men. Society told me that the man's education was important, not his personality .

I've learned the hard way, not to see well educated men as great, just because they have a good education.

The two worst men that I have ever met, were very well educated.

I went out with both of them for a short while. One had a master's in finance. He is now a director of a bank. He was severely abusive to me and sexually assaulted me. I went to rape crisis Therapy after him for a long time.

The other man had a master's degree. He was abusive and a pervert.

I went out with both of these men because their education attracted me, I thought that they would be interesting and articulate. I was also very conditioned by my society to go out with a high achieving man.

I've learned now not just to look at their education, but to look at their personality.

As an aside, there's a great Twilight Zone episode called "Not all Men". My daughter and I found it hilarious but this thread made me think of it. Not that make violence is funny but the end was quite clever. Worth a watch.

I'll look it up - thanks!

@AchatAVendre the PP cherry picked her arguments. The first line in the article starts with how the absence of fathers is the most influential factor in delinquency in later life. Relationship with the mother which the PP quoted was just one factor. Other factors were poverty, abuse in the home, breakdown of the family unit etc.

She also conveniently missed the part where the study - with the 44 thieves(that was criticised anyways and the methods were doubted as was the bias of the doctor) about maternal deprivation refers to prolonged periods of times (6 months) and children hospitalised or institutionalised with very little contact from their family. Not about children in childcare. It's not exactly rocket science to deduce that ACEs or early trauma will affect a child. That doesn't mean that children need a SAHP or that that parent must be the mum.

My mum was a shit mum. She was also a working mum. She would've been just as shit(because she was shit) if she stayed at home ,if not worse as I get blamed anyways for her lack of career progression.

I've been both a SAHM and a working mum. Overall I've been a much better mum and the only time I was shit for a while is because I tried to work like I didn't have kids and parent like I don't work and kept dropping balls and got overwhelmed. I was a dumbass.

I think it is relevant to ask why are women so cruel.

It's relevant first of all, to see the reaction of women. As it helps us to understand better the reaction of men.

If you say to women, : women can be extremely cruel. There are many accounts of women who have tortured, abused and murdered children, for example. Women will get defensive , and say "not all women"

The same thing happens if you say to men : there are loads of accounts of men torturing abusing and killing women.

They will say "well it wasn't me that did it"

So sorry for your experience. Yes, education doesn't seem to help. I would have thought humanities do cover historic oppression of women. Literature and history certainly do. Of course, subjects like maths or science probably don't, though they should! Considering male academics will be assessing female students, the lack of awareness is very concerning.

So sorry you went through that trauma x

My experience, though nothing like yours was a relatively young professor, whose academic literature specialised in anxiety and stress, so the field of psychology. One day at work I broke down about the passing of my dog. Trivial to him, to the extent he said "oh not dead dog syndrome again". This bastard, of all people, didn't care that my experience triggered something which had happened in my childhood. A psychologist later told me that. Funny that - not. I see this tosser on tv now and I just find him repulsive. I won't name him, for obvious legal reasons. He is also sexist.

Whataboutery doesn't help though.

It just seems like you're trying to minimise the issue of male violence by shouting about how women can be cruel too.
They're not two sides of the same coin.

You know women can create companies too, right @Suetodo88?
And that even if a woman joins an all-male Board, she's not actually taking control of their creation - but adding value to it?

You write as if work were in the gift of men, to be graciously bestowed upon women. Whereas in fact, women have worked for their livings since the dawn of time. Men have simply undervalued that contribution - especially when it concerns childrearing.

Education is irrelevant imo. Etonians anyone?

Education isn't totally irrelevant and it probably takes the edges off the crudest examples of day to day sexism. Most highly educated and cultured men would know an intelligent woman won't tolerate grossly sexist postures.

But it can compound the problem. Educated men know enough to know that neanderthal attitudes and values are unattractive to intelligent women so they learn early to conceal them better.

And being educated doesn't curb a sense of inherent superiority and can actually make it worse. Highly educated men can often be highly entitled men and highly educated men are more apt to think that a woman they pair with is obliged to facilitate and support them in their career, rather than developing her own.

@Thepeopleversuswork so do you think educating men about the history of women's oppression will only give them a superficial awareness of how to behave? Is that to say oppression of women is hardwired into men, do you think? And what can we do to change that, in your opinion?

Is there a reason you feel so offended by women discussing how the awful behaviour of men impacts there lives. Presumably you wouldn't take it so personally if we were talking about tax evaders being immoral, I'm assuming you're not a tax evader, so why get offended about this if you're one of the good guys.

When women murder and assault men at the rates that men murder and assault women I'll take your accusations of "venom and hatred" against men more seriously. Its almost like you don't give a shit what women go through as long as you don't have to hear about it. Well done, you're part of the problem.

Demanding that we preface every conversation about MVAW with NAMALT or you'll refuse to engage in good faith is misogynistic and narcissistic in the extreme. We'd have far less to talk about if male violence wasn't so prevalent in women's lives. Perhaps you could try talking to men about their behaviour rather than berating women for talking about it.

If you are not a violent arsehole towards women WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. Perhaps not being centred in the discussion hurts your feelings.

Specious codswallop.

98% of violent crime is committed by men. Justifying that by pointing at the rare outlier women who are also violent is bullshit, & I can't imagine why you are pretending it's 'relevant' @Mooshamoo.

@Mooshamoo I think it is probably true that humans often abuse those in a weaker position. It's uncomfortable to say, but women were complicit with segregation in America and slavery. A few spoke out, as did some men. I suppose you could say that women were subordinate themselves, but I think you may have a point that there is a tendency in the hierarchy to abuse the ones on the next rung down, while being abused from the ones above.

@FOJN well said.

"I don't abuse women, but I get all butthurt when women talk about men being abusive to them because I'm unable to focus on a bunch of people who aren't me, without making it all about me" is just DARVO'ing the problem back at women.
www.banyantherapy.com/darvo/

It's a self-centred attitude at best. At worst, it's looking to shut women down because men don't wanna hear that men can be bastards to women. Diddums.

I really noticed it since becoming an adult in the 1990s. Then all the New Lad behaviour came about, as if young men my age suddenly realised that all the New Man stuff in the 1980s (which was really just about not behaving like a toxic arsehole) didn't get them more girls so they would behave like a twat instead.